Thursday 1st October 2026
Time for another delve into my inbox and feature some of the emails readers have been sending to busandtrainuser@gmail.com over the last month or so. But first something that dropped through my PostBox just a couple of days ago…
Shrewsbury Area Bus Timetables
… yes, it’s another Omnibus Society produced comprehensive timetable book and this time for the Shrewsbury area.
It’s been compiled once again by Keith Shayshutt, together with Gary Nolan, and features every timetable for town routes, inter-urban routes and Park and Ride and as you can see from the above image, features all nine bus operators that now run into the town including the recently established Hotspur branded operation – from the same stable that brings us Centrebus, D&G Bus, Select Bus and Chaserider.
Timetables are laid out across the 26 pages in the booklet together with a network map showing Arriva’s routes as well as the Shropshire countywide map from Bus Atlas thanks to Brendan Fox.
As with both the recently produced timetable booklets for Powys and Dumfries & Galloway it’s to the Omnibus Society’s huge credit it’s stepping in to oversee publications of this kind in the absence of anything useful from the local authorities.
Well done to both Keith and Gary on another great production.
The timetable booklet is available to purchase on ebay for £4.99 and here’s a link which takes you directly to the relevant page.
Hotspur on target
And talking of Hotspur, Derek wrote describing his recent very positive experiences travelling on the newly won tendered bus routes in the Shrewsbury area which D&G Bus won from Arriva. As already highlighted, D&G have reintroduced the Hotspur branding and Derek was very impressed.
“I took the opportunity last Saturday to ride on Hotspur service 64 from Shrewsbury through to Hanley and return. In both directions, at stages throughout, both the 09.15 from Shrewsbury, and the 13.15 from Hanley were loaded to capacity. Clearly however the overwhelming bulk of the trade is to and from the excellent shopping facilities available at Newcastle under Lyme. On departure from Shrewsbury the EVoRa displayed Hanley, something Arriva never did! Likewise on return Shrewsbury was displayed.
However, with the number of other frequent services to and from Newcastle to Hanley. It’s begs the question, would it not be more viable to terminate the 64 at Newcastle? On my outward journey, after the mass exodus at Newcastle, only I and three other passengers remained. On the 13.15 from Hanley, only two other passengers and I joined, until the bus filled up again at Newcastle.
The drivers I encountered clearly appeared to be entering into the spirit of providing a good service with their newly won venture. The vehicles were nicely turned out both inside and out. I earwigged on a conversation, basically saying a lot of Shrewsbury drivers are hoping the service will fail under Hotspur. What Arriva drivers need to understand is the service was allowed to fail under their employer. Thank goodness we have the likes of D&G in the guise of Hotspur to salvage the situation!”
And, yes, Hotspur is not a new name for the area. Midland Red used it as a brand name in the Shrewsbury and Ludlow area from 1979.
Double Vision
Mike emailed just yesterday to point out one of those “why on earth do they do it like that?” phenomena at Tamworth station. He wrote: “I thought you might find the attached photo of information screens in the waiting room on platform 4 of Tamworth station of some note (and I think there’s similar on other platforms). As you can probably tell, the full display consists of two pages of information and, helpfully you would think, there are two side-by-side screens to display them on. Except that, less helpfully, both screens show page 1, followed by page 2 on both, and so on. You’d think it would be a fairly simple task to get them to display page 1 and page 2 side-by-side, but it’s been like this for several years to my certain knowledge. What a waste of expensive screen space!”
Why on earth do they do it like that?
Better buses for Southwark?
Tim got in touch to let me know about the “London Borough of Southwark, with a huge sum of money from the Mayor, is doing a staggeringly complex and drawn out consultation process on buses through the borough.” Tim provided a hyperlink to the Council’s website which gives full details of the proposals, yard-by-yard along the corridor between London Bridge, Elephant & Castle, Camberwell Green and Dulwich to the South Circular Road. The extensive consultation, which even included an invitation to evening guided walks along the route during August, has now closed.
It’ll be interesting to see if anything comes of all this, but as Tim points out “this is an area with no tubes and very reliant on buses and yet there’s no mention in the proposals of the things which annoy passengers and have made the buses almost unusable to reach central London in recent years – the 20mph limit, constant regulation of the service and above all repeated reductions in services. Ironically given the proposal is for the London Bridge to East Dulwich corridor, this is a journey which cannot be done by direct bus since the 40 was diverted to Clerkenwell to replace the 45 a few years ago cutting off a direct link to the City.”
Tim adds “even more ironic, just at the time this expensive and drawn out consultation is going on, TFL is doing a consultation on cutting another very longstanding link to the City, the 42, which will terminate in a no-man’s land south of Tower Bridge (since we know these consultations are always a foregone conclusion). The grounds – that Tower Bridge causes delays – are highly spurious based on my experience of using the route, especially as the 343 was recently extended just to go over the bridge and terminate on the north side, which surely TFL wouldn’t have done if it causes such delays!”
WESTLink’s Demand (Un)Responsive Transport
Patrick wrote to let me know about his recent experience booking a journey on the WESTlink DRT. Following changes to the Wrington zone in North Somerset, Patrick emailed WESTlink to let them know despite specifying the Sandford Station East bus stop as his desired pick up and Yatton railway station as his destination on the App, the software wouldn’t let him book with the following message…
….this struck Patrick as odd, not least as the stop serves the Sandford Station retirement village on the A368 and there’s a clearly marked bus stop at this location used by First Bus routes 126 to Wells and U2 to Bristol (as can be seen below).
Undaunted by not receiving a reply Patrick followed up his email with a reminder and received the following reply: “although Sandford and Winscombe have now been added to the Wrington zone, the Sandford Station East and West bus stops are not currently recognised by our system as safe/eligible WESTlink pick-up or drop-off points. This means, for the time being, you can only board or leave the WESTlink vehicle at the virtual bus stop offered by the system. This may change in the future if the stop locations are reviewed and added to the system, but unfortunately we are unable to manually override this at present.”
Patrick had also asked for clarification if the new five mile radius limit for a journey is ‘as the crow flies’ or ‘by the route taken’ which elicited the reply: “regarding the 5-mile cap, this is a limit applied automatically by our system to journeys starting or ending in the Wrington zone. The system automatically checks whether a journey falls within the permitted mileage, so unfortunately we cannot manually approve a journey based on the distance shown on a map or whether it appears to be within five miles as the crow flies.” Which means you need to know the length of your desired journey before booking.
Patrick pointed out in his reply to that reply that the WESTlink online zonal maps don’t show any “virtual bus stops” so understandably asked how is one supposed to be able to book from and to a location that’s a mystery. Patrick suggested someone give him a ring to explain things.
Back came the reply: “we understand the information shown on the different maps can be confusing, particularly when they appear to show different coverage and you are unable to identify the available pick-up and drop-off points. Unfortunately, we are unable to call customers directly to guide them through the booking process. However, our Live Support Team will be happy to assist you over the phone and can walk you through the available options and help you with your booking. Please give us a call on +44 117 457 8561 and our team will be happy to help.”
Undeterred by this continual fobbing off, Patrick persevered with his query with a phone call to the “Live Support Team” as suggested and followed up with an email explaining what happened…
“Good morning, I rang Westlink this morning on the number you gave below – the book a ride number. Very helpful American woman answered. I tried to book a ride from Sandford Station East bus stop in the Wrington Zone to Yatton Rail Station to arrive tomorrow at 10am. She was unable to locate Sandford Station East bus stop but located my address (less than a ‘stone’s throw’ away’). She said there are no pick-up points for that address and I would need to use regular buses. I asked her if I should report this, given that I now live within the Wrington Zone. Yes. She texted me the email address (which is the one I am already using for this conversation). So, I am reporting it!“
“1. I still don’t know why there are no pickup points (real or virtual) listed for my address, given I live (according to some of the maps – see below) in the Wrington Zone? 2. Even if it did work, I don’t know if Yatton Rail Station is within the mystical 5 mile radius.”
Ignoring a banal reply to that which missed the points Patrick made entirely, he followed up with another email asking for answers which was acknowledged with the response…“thank you for getting in touch. We’re very sorry to hear about the situation you’ve described. Your enquiry has been forwarded to the relevant team, who will review it as soon as possible. We will get back to you as soon as we have an update.If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.”
Patrick has promised to let me know when the WESTlink Team eventually do reply with an answer and I’ll gladly update blog readers in due course.
Slinky’s Unresponsiveness
On a similar theme Peter sent me an interesting full page article from the online magazine ‘The Somerset Leveller’ reviewing the county’s DRT branded Slinky and featuring Susan Rose “who uses the bus to travel from her home in Huish Episcopi to tend her livestock in Long Sutton”. She explained how she sometimes uses the bus two or three times a day and “had noticed a variation in services in recent months”.
Susan told the magazine “it seems the system doesn’t work and has been a shambles …. some people have been back and forth on buses, away from where they want to go, to pick up other passengers.” Welcome to the world of DRT, Susan.
The Fixed Timetable DRT … that still makes you book
And one more DRT update comes from David who points out the anomaly caused by this month’s replacement of Misterley Motors route 745 in Shropshire between Pontesbury, Bishop’s Castle, Aston-on-Clun, Craven Arms and Ludlow by Shrewsbury Dial-A-Ride (aka Shrewsbury Community Transport) running the now branded ‘Three Castles Shuttle’ one shopping return journey to a fixed timetable on MWFS…
… except requiring passengers to register and book their travel in advance.
And just to add to this non sensical complication, four weeks into the new regime and the Book Here link still doesn’t work.
However, bookings can be made by phone or email but what’s the point of adding this complication to a shopping journey to Ludlow and back? Crazy.
Weardale Motor’s heritage
Paul got in touch following the blog about route 99 operated by Weardale Motor Services and sent the above photo with the added comment: “although I haven’t travelled on Weardale’s contemporary buses, I did have the pleasure of riding on one of their earlier buses whilst visiting the Beamish museum during August this year. The 1949 All Leyland PD2 performed effortlessly around the museum circuit and was one of many other old buses the museum operates.” Thanks Paul.
Cambridgeshire’s Integrated Timetable Book
Ben got in touch after the recent Blog about Berkshire’s comprehensive timetable for the Reading area to remind me of the great timetables Eastern Counties used to produce including this example of comprehensive coverage of operators (including British Rail) from May 1980.
15 years on…
Meanwhile, in the out-of-date timetable on display stakes is this example sent to me by Troy from Carlisle’s Kingmoor Park displaying “times correct as of July 2011”. I’m sure they were!
Summit to think about
John emailed with a fascinating idea …. “we started to put together a list of the potential bus summits in England. The top 20 that emerged are here, but it starts to get a little murky as you go on. We were intrigued as to how many might be DalesBus. The Northern DalesBus does 2 in one route! The Little White Bus Dales Jumper is included and comes in at No2 but is a bookable service and thus may not qualify. Incidentally the highest bus rail interchange in the country is …. well you can probably guess where (1150ft)!”
And thanks to John’s research, here’s the list…
A stop that’s survived
Blog reader John is always on the look out for quirky things to spot and got in touch to tell me he spotted one of the original London Transport bus stop poles still doing great service in Park Street Luton the other day.
The above images are from Google Street View but John managed to get a photo through the bus window as he passed by which shows it’s even still got space for route numbers.
They don’t make them like that these days.
Avoid East Croydon between 06:00 and 06:02
Robin wrote to let me know of an oddity at East Croydon rail station where “you cannot tap in or out (wonder how people will know that given the notice is outside of the gateline) between 0600 and 0602″ due to a ‘gates reset at this time’.
Robin asks, quite pertinently “why cannot the reset be done earlier?”. A good question.
Robin also spotted an Irizar ie tram (ie it’s a bus) on Kent’s Fastrack network recently pointing out it “really thinks itself is a tram”.
He also let me know “TfL Rail and Overground orange live on on 701’s information screens’.
The wrong 310
On a similar out-of-touch theme, Barry emailed me to point out “while waiting for a 310 bus for Hertford at Waltham Cross Bus Station today, I noticed a poster on the bus stop informing me of ‘Important changes to your Route 310’ so I thought I had better read it, only to be informed there would be alterations to the route between Golders Green and Stamford Hill.” If anyone living locally can send me a photo, this one really is deserving of an end-of-year Award in the BusAndTrainUser Awards.
Can you help trace Andy for Lyn?
And finally, Lyn emailed me to say….
“I have been trying to find someone who used to work as a bus driver for Western National in 1974. His route was driving from Penzance station to Guavas Estate in Newlyn. I only remember him as Andy he was in his mid twenties. Would love to find him and hope you can help in some way. Thank you.”
If any blog reader knows Andy (who must now be in his late 70s) can you let him know someone called Lyn is trying to get in touch and if he’s interested I can let him have her email address.
Thanks for all the emails to busandtrainuser@gmail.com.
Roger French
Blogging timetable: 06:00 TThS
I wonder if the Shropshire bus to Ludlow is being run on a Community Transport permit, and so requires users to be registered?
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That’s what I was thinking.
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On the fascinating summits item – Wrights of Alston used to also hold the ultimate record, a weekly summer service from Alston to St John’s Chapel in Weardale that reached 2056 feet. I think Weardale also ran to Alston on summer Sundays more recently, but that was a Durham County initiative that disappeared during Austerity. High Peak’s 58 summit is better defined as The Cat and Fiddle- the usual name of the pass and the now closed pub at its top, rather than Shining Tor, which is higher than the road. South Pennine’s 87 (listed under The Winnats) no longer runs.
Phil Drake
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Can I offer a number 18a?
18a X74 Newcastle – Jedburgh Carter Bar 1371 ft A68 Newcastle – Jedburgh
Peter Hogg
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It is Minsterley Motors who ran to Ludlow.
I see that the Shropshire map omits a once a week route from Cardington, a village east of Church Stretton to Shrewsbury. Does the timetable book only show principal routes?
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The 540 is indeed in the book.
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Bus Atlas doesn’t usually show very infrequent routes- while admirable it isn’t fully comprehensive. The 540 from Cardington appears to run Mon to Fri, particularly for FE students.I expect it will be in the timetable as the Powys and Dumfries books include all services.
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I wondered if the list of buses over high summits will inspire a series of blogs for 2027?
Would be quite difficult as many are seasonal and/or odd days of the week. However, I think you have done quite a few already in various guises.
The map in the Shrewsbury timetable will be principal routes as that is what Brendan Fox shows in his maps. Hopefully the timetable is comprehensive.
Good to see Centrebus reviving another old identity – Hotspur. Was one of the better Midland Red MAP names. High Peak are keeping the Hulleys name going as well.
Richard Warwick
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I think Midland Red must have created the most number of local identities ( there may be a couple of NBC companies that came close ) presumably invented as the VNP went along. The Green Stripe computer output of route costs and revenues from fares and subsidies to give a + or – contribution to overheads of actual routes and then the planned network routes with some facts to take to local authorities for how much they should pay if they wanted additional routes or times. Some things wont change except these days it is probably on A4 Laser Printed reports.
London Borough of Southwark , three notable points. The areas marked as Walworth Road and Camberwell Road at one time had rail stations on the Denmark Hill to Elephant and Castle Route from the days when the areas homes were of the clerical banking classes, both closed but there are calls that one at least should be reopened for Thameslink services now they run to Farringdon and beyond . The closures came about as the cheaper and more frequent tram basically took much of the route – though to Southwark Bridge rather than London Bridge I think , of the entire blue line just about. Indeed the blue line does look to be something that could be promoted as a Super Loop (Super Link ? (my name for the non arc of london routes)) service probably running over London Bridge to Liverpool Street or Finsbury Square. Despite though the lack of tube services the bus routes are quite intensive along Walworth Road and dont seem to suffer from the congestion that somewhere like Streatham Hill does , probably as there are fewer traffic conflicts with crossing junctions like the South Circular one. One tiny annoyance is the lack of decent coordination to Thameslink and South Eastern services east of Denmark Hill station with the Overground from Clapham High street where a 8 min retiming of one or the other would give twice the onward eastbound connections rather than trains arriving and departing at the same time twice an hour.
JBC Prestayn
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Over recent years there have indeed been calls to reopen Camberwell station. The area around Camberwell and Walworth is something of a “rail desert”. Unusually for inner London, parts of the area (which extends eastwards to Old Kent Road and is densely-populated) are more than 1km from any rail access.
There have been plenty of proposals, not least extending the Bakerloo Line southwards from Elephant & Castle to Camberwell, although the current plan is to extend it down the Old Kent Road corridor instead if funding ever materialises. Another proposal some years back came from a private tram promoter wanting to build a tram line from Camberwell Green to London Bridge – that did strike me as a solution looking for a problem, as it wouldn’t have provided any direct links for passengers using buses from south of Camberwell or heading north to places across the Thames.
Although it is true that the proposals from Southwark aren’t covered end-to-end by one single bus route, on a point of detail I don’t think they ever have been. Route 40 terminates at Dulwich Library (having preivously run to Herne Hill instead), the proposals cover a further half a mile or so to the South Circular. But, ignoring that point of pedantry, the proposals do cover busy corridors which overlap, not least the 40 and 176 from Dulwich through Camberwell to Elephant & Castle, and the 35 from Camberwell through Elephant to London Bridge.
It may no longer be possible to get a direct bus from Lordship Lane/East Dulwich to London Bridge (a situation which had existed prior to 1994). Nevertheless that corridor does still have direct links to the City (40 to the Ludgate Circus area) and West End (176), which is more than can be said for the 343 corridor north of Peckham. The 343 was extended over Tower Bridge a few years ago to maintain links from the London Bridge area previously by the RV1. Initially the 343 ran to Aldgate, but has since retreated to Tower Gateway.
Malc M
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I remember doing an Omnibus Society hire 40odd years back perhaps it was for an anniversary of the 40 from Herne Hill (? Tulse Hill) northwards to its (Sunday?) northern terminus of our favourite place of Waltham Abbey.
Camberwell is rather well served compared to some places with cross routes from Oval and Peckham as well as Clapham Junction and as far a Penge , perhaps the best thing that happened was the introduction of the 148 which I found useful when travelling to or from parts of central london that otherwise didnt have a decent service along Walworth Road.
JBC Prestatyn
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East Dulwich to London Bridge was possible much more recently than that, until 2019 on the 40 until it was diverted to Clerkenwell.
The 343 section north of Peckham is much better served now since the 136 was extended. And of course much of that route through the Aylesbury Estate is shared with the 42 which is threatened with curtailment cutting off a useful link to the City, as mentioned in Roger’s original post. It would be better to curtail the 42 in the south as the ‘round the houses’ extension from Denmark Hill to East Dulwich Sainsbury’s is very lightly used
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@anon 2/10 20:28 – apologies if my previous comment was unclear.
The link provided by route 40 from the East Dulwich area to London Bridge hadn’t existed prior to 1994. Before then, the 40 ran to Herne Hill (and, in years gone by, further south).
As you say, the 40 provided that link until 2019.
The 343 corridor is better served since the 136 was extended in 2014, but anyone wanting to go beyond Elephant to Waterloo, the West End or the City has to change at Elephant – the 42 does serve a couple of stops on that corridor, but not all of it. That is in contrast to the route 40 corridor through East Dulwich with direct buses to the City (40) and West End (176), and not forgetting Victoria (185)
Malc M
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Not on the high list I still find being on a double deck Witchway Transdev Burnley service on the route particulary going toward Burnley being of ear popping elevations and might be the highest Double Deck route and possibly covering the height at the fastest speed of the routes on the list?
One would have thought Oyster Gates reset 0430 to 0432 ?
JBC Prestatyn
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Given that the ticketing “day” ends at 04 29 (or 24 29 as London Underground would have it), I agree. That would make much more sense than 06 00 – 06 02.
I’m sure there’s an explanation for it, although whether it’s much more than “because the relevant manager didn’t know about the ticketing day when they chose that time” is anyone’s guess.
I have a smartwatch which insists that the ‘sleep day’ starts at 8 p.m., which I’m sure is fine for someone working a normal day. Someone working very early shifts, on the other hand, may already be in bed at that time. I suspect the same mindset is behind the ticket barrier reset time.
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Witchway (at 992 feet) is not the highest double-deck route.
Number 17 on the list – DalesBus 875/6 at 1394 feet) are operated by DD and advertised as such.
DalesBus 822 is also DD (and advertised as such) and reaches 1325 feet between Greenhow and Stump Cross (possibly Number 21 on the list?)
……… and, whilst we are about it, number 14 on the list, Keighley to Hebden Bridge, is route B3, not B1.
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At least it does confirm my suspicion that 992feet plus say 10foot on a top deck that I was on top of a mountain. (defining as 1000+feet)
JBC Prestatyn
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I would guess that the two identical screens are so you can still see everything if one breaks down?
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I’ve never yet seen either one fail. And I’d at least find it acceptable if they rolled 1>2 and 2>1 so that one is displaying page 1 and the other page 2 all the time, even if half the time they were in the wrong order! Then if one broke down the other would still show both pages in turn.
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The spot height for the Edale road the High Peak 62 traverses is 517 metres 1696 feet.
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Picking up on the comment about comprehensive timetable books, another NBC company to produce them was Hants & Dorset.
I’m looking at a 1979 edition of the Bournemouth & Poole area timetable, which appears to have been produced jointly with Bournemouth Transport (aka Yellow Buses). As well as timetables for Yellow Buses and Hants & Dorset services, it also has 12 pages of other operators’ services (Western national and independents), National Express, British Rail and the Lymington/Yarmouth ferry. Admittedly, the BR timetable only seems to be the main serivces to/from London Waterloo, not all local stations are shown and neither is the Lymington branch shuttle.
I don’t think full timetables for Yellow Buses featured in H&D’s book for long, possibly only 1979 and 1980.
Malc M
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Malc, I have a pocket size Yellow Buses 1983 summer timetable book (cost 15p). Front cover has a photo of an open top Fleetline posed on the West Overcliff Drive (I think) with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra on the top deck. It reminds me if childhood holidays.
Pete
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Pete. The photo you refer to (VJT 140S) is featured in a book titled ‘Bournemouth Transport’ part of the Glory Days series published by Ian Allan in 2002. PB
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On the 310, I’ve actually seen that poster at Waltham Cross, if its still there I could send you a picture! It really baffled me as it’s not only the wrong area but TFL really should run at least one route to Cheshunt with future developments in the wider area! What you’ll also find at Waltham Cross Bus Station is still a total lack of information on the stands serving Waltham Abbey and Cheshunt as the posts saying the stands were closed during last years regeneration of the town centre were not removed at all! These notices still cover up outdated timetables! No one seems responsible for this area, its madness!
The TFL 310 has also been found to be a massive waste of money to no surprise too. It’s losing £2.6 million a year. Covering just 21% of its costs by fares! TFL’s solution? Expand it to Midnight and run via Holloway Road, introduce double deckers! Even though changing the 210 it mostly duplicates would be a better use of resources.
I don’t want to pit areas against each other but I feel TFL have fobbed us off in fringe areas by claiming we can’t have cross-boundary routes to places like Waltham Abbey, just for them to do this instead. Does show the money exists though! Also not fair on places like Edmonton Green where buses have been recently cut.
Aaron
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@Aaron – proving that, when the facts about what TfL is and isn’t responsible for have been explained to you ad nauseam, you disregard them.
TfL haven’t fobbed you off because, whether you like it or not, TfL does not have responsiblility for your area.
Malc M
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That shouldn’t matter! London impacts everything about Cheshunt and towns like it, especially housing, transport and infrastructure – that reality is what really should matter. TFL claim they have no money for things but they just proved they did, its being wasted and not just denying transport to areas outside the administrative area but firmly in London’s built up area but also cutting buses where demand is consistently very high in North London! It’s relevant because their buses served here until the late 80s, Waltham Abbey way into the 90s. London Overground serving the area today but no joined up fares and capping between the local buses and trains.
TFL also have that policy where they want 80% of all journeys done by walking, cycling and public transport by the early 2040s. That is literally impossible unless their attitudes towards transport in fringe areas including cross-boundary changes radically!
It is not set in stone that TFL has to stick neatly to its area, in reality it does not and a proactive attitude between it and the Home Counties is essential. If the North can do it, so can we.
I just filled out the Herts Local Transport Plan Consultation emphasising how we need later buses, better cross-boundary routes and far more integration with trains here. The awkward geography of the county means cross-boundary is so important to get right.
Aaron
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We’ve been round this buoy several times and risk getting tied up in its mooring ropes.. Cheshunt is not in greater London. Whilst there may be a strong argument for a “greater London” to include some of the neighbouring areas there really isn’t a groundswell of support for such a move. The recent decision by the shadow West Surrey Council to seek approval for it to be named “West Surrey and West Middlesex Council” has attracted significant opposition, including from the Tory cohort on the authority. Many of the complaints are along the lines of “we don’t want to be associated in any way with London”. Transport for London takes the view that its general requirement under the GLA Act 1999 to operate services “to and from” Greater London is discharged by serving the first main town outside Greater London. If you disagree with it then you could always mount a legal challenge but I suspect that would be a waste of time.
Of course a boundary has two sides and, if the demand was perceived to be there for a Cheshunt to somewhere in greater London service Hertfordshire CC could have tendered for it. Of course, you could always stand for election on a platform of promoting cross-boundary bus services.
As for the TfL 310, its introduction was a mayoral election pledge in 2024 by Sadiq (now Lord) Khan. He won the election and has delivered on his promise. That’s democracy! The 310 has recently been re-routed and now partly parallels the (quite probably) soon to be withdrawn 254. If (when?) that takes place the 310 will gain added purpose.
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The thing is it shouldn’t matter about wanting to be associated with London or not, I purely look at it in how the area functions, how it built up, where people work etc. That makes us functionally apart of London and not just in a built up area sense, the denial some have locally astounds me, especially those who work in London! In fact the estate I live on was built by Edmonton Council, Enfield inherited it when that came about, naturally the area is full of Londoners.
Even most of the new towns which are more clearly separate from London, there is a strong link with London and government structures should exist that overlap both areas, I think that is just common sense. The lack of strategic arrangements and cross-regional planning is the problem.
Staines (formally Middlesex) should be in London as there’s no countryside between it and Feltham. Ironically it has the opposite problem to Cheshunt, it gets red buses but no oyster on the train!
But regardless a town shouldn’t have to be in the administrative area to benefit from TFL and in reality many areas benefit despite not being in London, I just want some consistency is all. It should be expected people in Outer London need to travel outwards and bus routes be provided on that basis. The fact that there is a long history of London Transport out here shows these authorities once had a good middle ground and that’s what needs to come back.
Given how dependent London is on commuting, it surprises me that its transport authority doesn’t cover more of the commuter area.
Aaron
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As a long term resident of Spelthorne I can tell you that the majority of my fellow citizens (regrettably) would rather put their hand in a bucket full of rattlesnakes than be part of Greater London. That was their view in the early ‘60s when it was proposed that the urban districts of Staines and Sunbury should be in the GLC and nothing has changed since.
The boundaries of the GLA are unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. Whilst TfL controls some rail services outside London this is more a product of needing to continue to a natural terminus than anything else. Clearly to stop Elizabeth line trains at West Drayton would be just as daft as expecting the 117 bus to perform a three point turn immediately after the Challenge Road stop.
Even if London was to be expanded there would still be a boundary somewhere. The same issues would then emerge….
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I understand your frustration Aaron when you see for example, TfL operating beyond the last large town on some of its borders. However, as many others have pointed out here, those services are financially supported by the appropriate councils with agreement with TfL. As has also been pointed out many times before, given your strength of feeling over this, you need to mount a concerted campaign to convince the relevant county councils to enter into similar financial support agreement/s with TfL to provide the services you and presumably, other folk in your area require. Maybe start with a media approach (both local TV and Social platforms) to ascertain some idea of the potential demand that really exists for what you’re demanding.
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Actually @anonymous at 5:03pm
Only the routes that run into Surrey receive any local council subsidy. None of the routes that run into Kent, Hertfordshire or Essex get a penny from those county councils. Something I also don’t agree with as it gives no incentive to improve or extend such routes, make sure border communities needs are actually met etc. That’s why to me the problem is structural, whole areas suffer and the economy is held back by it being like this.
Something like 60 bus routes run beyond London’s border including operations out of 3 garages. Because one of those is Potters Bar, ghost buses as I call them (Not in Service) are a regular sight in Cuffley and West Cheshunt.
Aaron
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I forget the actual wording but generally adjoining authorities responsible for public transport coordination have a duty to work together ( quite if that means or follows funding for such services as a result is even slightly more grey – See the latest Cambridge and Peterborough Authority review of bus services which at least acknowledges impacts on Suffolk as an example )
That the public would be better served , and presumably policies like ULEZ and road congestion particulary on cross border services into the Waltham Cross and Waltham Abbey (and argueably beyond) Is a discussion worth having , however I think “improvements” will only come about once the Crews Hill Newtown is under construction , which will change Enfield in a way that is itself politically contentious. Bus services to areas of present low density housing and ribbon development of the 1930s to 1950s are difficult and expensive to provide – even in single authority areas where for example the leafier suburbs of Leeds to the north get at best a half hourly bus service on any individual road.
It may be that a Buses for London company and full franchising for Herts and Essex may deliver Aaron his wish list, maybe within five years If Labour hold UK parliamentary working majority we might find out.
JBC Prestatyn
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@JBC Prestatyn
I want to believe the Crews Hill development will mean London routes are extended out this way but I don’t have a lot of faith so far that they will. It is extremely important it happens though as developments are also happening in multiple places at once on this side of the border in the coming years. Goffs Oak has already grown so much in recent years! I find it concerning so far Greater London and Hertfordshire haven’t formally discussed the issues, yet alone, ironed out the exact services, transport and everything else that will be needed to make things work out well.
Hertfordshire I can see franchising in full, Essex is very uncertain and then you have the council reorganisation which is now also very uncertain.
I consider Cambridgeshire in a similar boat to Hertfordshire in their county circumstances, in that many key destinations are outside the county. You can’t separate Royston or Haverhill from Cambridge for example.
I would also like to see this new TFL bus company plan the network around its garage’s catchment area so dead mileage is reduced, but that would need to end the odd practice of tendering every route separately.
Aaron
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The problems with buses in Southwark – or anywhere else – are not caused by the 20mph speed limit. The idea that buses ever used to belt down the Walworth Road at a steady 30 isn’t very well founded.
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more a trundle at 25mph. Night Buses through Kennington on the A24 would easily top 30mph though
JBC Prestayn
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@JBC – 25mph on Walworth Road would be “optimistic” for much of the day. It’s a busy high street in all but name, with plenty of shops, traffic, pedestrians, pedestrian crossings.
The proposals from Southwark Council focus on a number of roads where buses make slow progress – Borough High Street, Walworth Road, Camberwell Green/Denmark Hill come to mind straight away.
Malc M
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Not down Walworth Road but parts of Lordship Lane and the South Circular down to Forest Hill.
The biggest factor of all not mentioned is the loss of bus lanes for cycle routes – eg Waterloo Bridge NB, Blackfriars Bridge NB, Oval NB. That has affected buses covered by this consultation (eg 68,176, 40, 185) significantly
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Not much one can do with Denmark Hill with the road junction onto Coldharbour Lane and at Camberwell Green the crossroads is always going to be a junction delay, maybe extend the 148 to Peckham to avoid the 148 turning right and terminating at Camberwell removing a couple of vehicles going a bit up the hill, then trying to get out again into slow traffic even with lights to help them.
Borough High Street under the railway bridge could be made one way northbound with all traffic south going via London Bridge Station forecourt area around the Shard, that might help with better exit from the station not blocking southbound traffic so much.
JBC Prestatyn
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Is it only the gates at East Croydon that have to “reset” every day? What happens everywhere else?
Steven Saunders
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I do find this “screen 4 of 5” stuff frustrating, especially if making a tight connection.
For instance, in Birmingham NS, and seeing seven screens needed to show all stops to Pwllheli might be seen as broadly OK, because to most, it is obvious which train it is. But say you just want to get to Shrewsbury, and were unfamiliar with the rail network, you could easily miss the train while it shows all the Welsh stops.
I’m not suggesting making the font smaller. Just, in many places, there is room for larger screens, or more logical use of them, as in the example in the blog.
I still remember the old Solari flap boards – and they definitely had one panel that said “destinations continue in the next column” (and with an arrow pointing right) for cases where trains were making many stops.
And on that subject, I think the Solari boards should come back. Or some electronic way of immitating them. If you were in a cafe on the station, you didn’t have to stare at them all the time – you knew when things were being updated because of the sudden burst of noise.
(CH Oxford)
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CH. I know exactly what you mean. Many a time I would hear the clatter of the boards whilst quietly reading a magazine in W H Smith awaiting my train home from Waterloo. Your suggestion of developing an electronic version should be investigated for that last benefit alone! PB
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On the subject of LT era bus stop posts there are still a few in the former country area. Rook Lane, Chaldon still boasts some pre-war posts – see https://www.google.com/maps/@51.2812796,-0.1059189,185a,15y,67.58h,90.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sx6gXanKN7v-x7t9G5V_77Q!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.4750838321194806%26panoid%3Dx6gXanKN7v-x7t9G5V_77Q%26yaw%3D67.5787624663594!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDkyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D One has largely disappeared into the encroaching greenery but most are in surprisingly good condition!
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