Tuesday 1st July 2025
Congratulations to Hazel Grove’s Park & Ride celebrating its 10th Anniversary today. I thought I’d check out how it’s going ten years on.
Hailed as “the first privately funded Park and Ride in the country”, the £3 million 400 space facility, purchased by Stagecoach, was destined to “take 6,000 cars off the regions roads every month”.
I paid a visit when it opened back in July 2015…
… and although impressed with the smart looking waiting facility at the car park, complete with a timetable leaflet rack, and, I seem to remember, toilets and an office and facilities for staff…
… I was always sceptical whether it would work, bearing in mind the company’s frequent route 192 which terminated in a newly constructed layby right outside the car park, and running every 10 minutes, but took an hour to reach Manchester’s city centre.
A 60 minute bus ride is hardly conducive to persuade motorists to park up in Hazel Grove and travel by bus along the congested A6. I just couldn’t see it working.
And so it proved, if my recent return visit on a lovely sunny morning is typical. The facilities were well and truly shuttered shut and looked to be long out of use…
… and those smart new cycle storage facilities funded by Transport for Greater Manchester spotted through the writing on the front window of the bus I caught back in 2015 …
… look somewhat unloved and unused…
… ten years later in 2025.
I counted the number of cars parked in the 400 space car park…
… and at 11:30 on a lovely sunny Saturday morning with Manchester’s city centre packed with shoppers, there were just 26 cars…
… and the whole thing appeared to be in a rather sad and sorry state. Which is a shame as the new buses now operating route 192 offer a lovely comfortable ride.
I took a ride into Manchester on what is one of Britain’s most frequent bus routes to see how it was performing now it’s been transformed from an old style Stagecoach operated commercial route into a Bee-Network, yellow liveried, Stagecoach operated franchised route for TfGM.
It’s not easy to keep buses running to time on such a frequent route like the 192. Frequency for buses on the full route length from Hazel Grove to Manchester Piccadilly is every 10 minutes which is supplemented by another 10 minute frequency between Stepping Hill Hospital (nine minutes further north of Hazel Grove) and Piccadilly, which are both supplemented by another 10 minute frequency between Stockport (18 minutes north of Stepping Hill Hospital) and Piccadilly, meaning the northern section of route from Stockport to Piccadilly (35 minutes journey time) has a bus every three/four minutes at 01-05-08-11-15-18-21-25-28-31-35-38-41-45-48-51-55-58 minutes past the hour.
Join me as I catch the 11:38 northbound departure from Hazel Grove to Piccadilly to see how regular the buses passing by heading south were on their way to Stockport, Stepping Hill Hospital and Hazel Grove.
First up, just after we joined the A6 to head to Manchester Piccadilly we passed the bus behind us arriving at Hazel Grove at 11:39.
Three minutes later, at 11:42, we met the first example of traffic delays as we inched our way forward and through the traffic lights…
… at the busy Commercial Road junction…
… and the next southbound 192 to Hazel Grove passed us at 11:43.
Three minutes later at 11:46, the next Hazel Grove bound bus passes by…
…as we reach Stepping Hill Hospital, and indeed, the next bus which passes us at 11:47 is terminating there…
… and, slightly out of order, the next one at 11:52…
… is a Stepping Hill Hospital terminator too.
I notice the A6 is free flowing nicely at this point, although I wonder what it’s like at morning peak time and see there would be space for a bus lane to usurp the parked cars if needed.
While I was thinking about that, a minute later, at 11:53 the next Hazel Grove bus passed but caught me out and I didn’t get a photo, so instead here’s one of The Atlantic Fish Bar which the bus just passed.
We’re now almost in the epicentre of Stockport where the third tranche of 10 minute frequency buses join us and, as you can see this section of the A6 has a plethora of other bus routes heading to the new Transport Interchange..
… but we stick to the A6 as we offload almost all the passengers who’ve joined us over the 18 minutes since we left Hazel Grove. And just as we approach the bus stop alongside the Transport Interchange at 11:53 the next southbound bus passes us bound for Hazel Grove.
It’s now 11:56 and we settle ourselves in for a driver changeover as the bus parks up offering a view of Stockport’s smart new Transport Interchange at its lower level and the long established viaduct taking the main railway line into Manchester.
While our new driver settles in I notice two buses on the other side of the road playing leapfrog as one also changes drivers and stays there for a while…
… and then another southbound bus appears and also leapfrogs the changeover bus…
… and meanwhile the minutes are ticking by and our engines been switched off while the bus in front of us, on the stop when we arrived, has long moved off…
… and as another southbound bus arrives…
… back on our side of the road, the bus behind us has done a leapfrog…
… and I realise we’ve now been sitting going nowhere for eight minutes, indicating there’s some slack time in the timetable – but hardly endearing to any motorist who left their car behind in the Park & Ride car park half an hour ago.
It’s now 12:04 and we finally set off again with the bus that’s just passed us firmly in view.
We’re soon passing over the M60…
… and, for the first time, have the benefit of a bus lane, although it’s not needed in the current clear traffic conditions.
It’s 12:07 and the next Hazel Grove bound bus passes by…
…and the bus lane rolls out into the distance for us…
… as we finally catch up the bus in front.
Meanwhile heading south is the first Stagecoach liveried bus to pass us at 12:09 bound for Stepping Hill Hospital…
…and they’re coming thick and fast now with further pass-bys at 12:11…
… and 12:14.
The busy neighbourhood district of Levenshulme is now within our sights as the next southbounder passes at 12:15 …
… the bus lane disappears, the road enjoys some foliage and planters.
… and on-street parking is back. We’ve not been doing so well for passengers, which isn’t surprising as the bus in front is doing all the work for us.
It’s now 12:19 as the next southbound bus passes…
… and the two of us catch up with a third…
… and there’s room for a new cycle lane to be installed, but no bus lane…
…as the next Stepping Hill Hospital bound bus passes at 12:20…
… followed 10 seconds later by a Stockport bound short.
Meanwhile we finally get to do some leapfrogging ourselves…
… as we pass under the railway line…
… and approach the busy area of Longsight with the next two buses ahead of us now in view and another southbounder at 12:22.
It’s a shame there’s no room for a bus lane through this congested area…
… full of independent retailers attracting the “I’m only going to be parked here for a minute” brigade…
… as they stop to…
… pick up their authentic Punjabi Dishes or fruit and veg.
Meanwhile at 12:26 I thought it was about time a Hazel Grove bus passed by…
… with a Stockport not far behind as we at last get through the Longsight bottleneck at 12:26.
Just the other side of that next junction with Kirkmanshulme Lane we catch up with the next two buses again…
… while at 12:28, 12:30 and 12:31 southbound buses pass by heading to all three southern terminal points…
… as the road is exclusively patronised by the 192 for this final stretch.
We’re not far away now with a Hazel Grove bound bus passing at 12:32 as we reach the roundabout with the Hyde Road…
…and at 12:36 as we pass under the A57M with the two buses ahead of us within touching distance the penultimate southbound bus to observe heads towards Stockport…
… and indeed, a minute later, alongside Piccadilly railway station we see the last southbound bus of the journey…
… as we use the bus only central streets…
… to reach the Piccadilly bus stand where we arrive at 12:39, one hour and a minute since leaving Hazel Grove, with two buses already on stand…
… one of which immediately leaves for the picking up stop…
… and another two arrive immediately behind us.
Thanks for joining me for an interesting ride over the last hour on one of Britain’s most frequent bus routes. There’s no doubt it’s a busy bus route.
You only have to stand at the boarding point for southbound buses at the Piccadilly terminal point to see what a gap of more than a few minute does to the numbers.
The sheer number of buses, their quality, and the consistent application of the new Bee Network branding is impressive. It was particularly impressive to see minimal bunching on such a high frequency route. With departures every 2-4 minutes, even with the inevitable bus bunching on occasions, passengers never have to wait long.
But as for attracting motorists to leave their cars at Hazel Grove. Forget it.
I doubt the Stagecoach owned car park was purchased by TfGM in the recent property deals and my guess is it’ll soon be closed and put up for sale. Stagecoach are certainly not getting any benefit from its (minimal) use at the present time.
Roger French
Summer blogging timetable: 06:00 TThSSu
BusAndTrainUser 
The 192 worked just as well under Stagecoach, and things have changed little. But there certainly does seem some “slack” timings padded into the schedule rather more TfL style than most Manchester services.
It may be recalled that when Hazel Grove P&R opened, there were peak express services introduced (sensibly), but had to be withdrawn owing to the amount of abuse the Drivers received by those who apparently were unable to check which bus they boarded. Doubtless under Mayor Burnham’s brave new, and very expensive world, such things no longer happen.
Terence Uden
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There are still some X92 journeys in the morning going into Manchester – 0632, 0702, 0725 (MF).
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What a wate of money, Who is now subsidizing that site it has no real revenues
Does the service really need to bed that frequent, The passenger loadings look to be quite light, It could be reduced to say every 6 minutes and it would make little difference to the time you wait for a bus but would saved a lot of money
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Is anyone subsidising the site?
Roger’s commentary states that it was privately-funded by Stagecoach.
I have commented below about frequency (compared to when the 192 was commercial)
Malc M
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The site costs money and it has operating costs, The money has to come from somewhere
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@Anon 06:33 – yes, the money does indeed have to come from somewhere. The question is, who is responsible for the site currently?
If the site is still operated (commercially) by Stagecoach, the “subsidy” will be coming from Stagecoach themselves (as it would have done since the site opened). If the site is no longer owned/operated by Stagecoach, the costs will presumably be borne by whoever acquired the site from them.
In any case, it appears that the site’s future as an under-used car park is only short-term. As another comment below already states, planning approval has been given to build a new ambulance station on the site.
Malc M
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There has been an approved planning application by North West Ambulance to take space at Hazel Grove P&R for an ambulance depot https://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/ieDecisionDetails.aspx?AIId=80589 to replace the current one at Travis Brow, Stockport near the M60, which in turn is scheduled to be the new “all-electric” depot as Stockport Council are claiming the existing leased depot back https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/council-prepares-to-make-critical-stockport-8-land-swap/
Bee Network listed the 192 as carrying 5% of all Bee Network passengers across GM during March 2025:
The most popular services during March 2025 were all in Tranche 3 (1st -31st March 2025).
Tranche 3 192 c858,000 jnys, 143 c445,000 jnys 43 c350,000 jnys (ex Magic Bus 143 is really a short working of the 43)
Tranche 2 135 c299,000 jnys 409 c298,000 jnys, 17 c274,000 jnys.
Tranche 1 36 c256,700 jnys 471 c256,300 jnys 163 c229,600 jnys
The 192 alone made up 11% of Tranche 3 bus use, and 5% of overall network bus use in March 2025.
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These figures come from the report ‘Delivering Better Bus Services for Greater Manchester’ which you can find to download at https://news.tfgm.com/ under the press release of 24 June. There is a lot of interesting information in this but I think it needs to be read critically. The pie-charts on pg.23 show only 47% fare-box recovery. The map of high-frequency routes (pg. 18) is good the statement on pg. 17 implying that this is the result of franchising is not correct, all these routes operated before and at these frequencies pre-COVID. So the statement on pg.16 that there were only 29 pre-franchising while strictly correct is misleading as the 12 have simply been put back to pre-COVID levels. In an earlier pre-release (15 March) they said that these 41 routes carry just over 54% of passengers in GM, which might suggest that the rest of the network is very thinly spread yet we already have councillors jumping up and down demanding more services for their area. Note that the 41 services includes the non-Bee Network 125 (Bolton-Preston). 14% growth in bus usage in first two franchising areas is good (pg.19), but how does this compare nationally? Are we still looking at COVID recovery?
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The new Ambulance Station and all-electric bus garage project is for ever going backwards. I think 2028 is the date currently being quoted. Should have been ready for November 2024 but it was not so all the electric buses have gone elsewhere.
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I wonder what will happen with EV’s when they ned to be replaced. Unless the cost of them falls significantly the bus companies will face big cost increases
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One very curious service ran for a short period when I lived in Hersham. You see the main supermarket in Hersham for many years was a SAFEWAY. Safeway gave way to MORRISONS at some stage and then Morrisons wished to pull out of Hersham. So, WAITROSE took over the site in May 2005. It became WAITROSE store 765 and has remained open ever since. Prior to opening in Hersham, Waitrose wanted to get Hersham folk used to using a Waitrose store. So, Waitrose ran a free shuttle service M-S only between 16/05/05 and 08/06/05 between Hersham Green and Weybridge where there store 157 had been open for many years. I tried it once and very oddly it had an intermediate stop at a retirement village called Whiteley Village so named after William Whiteley who ran a department store near Bayswater Underground Station. Hill’s of Hersham ran the shuttle with their small coach BF52ACU. I had a curious relationship with the Waitrose store in Weybridge. It had a staff football team which they named Waitrose 157 FC and their games were part of the South Thameside Sunday Football League and I was on this league’s referees’ panel. In my time I refereed several “works” teams: policemen, postmen, milkmen and I got to know that Sutton Pirates FC was composed of the inside staff of Sutton Bus Garage. This was a Sunday morning club, so I theorised that when Sutton Pirates FC were in action, broken down Sutton Garage buses had to wait for attention until the final whistle had been blown for their games.
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From 1986 until 2005 I worked for a manufacturing company that had an office on Monument Hill. Although I worked all over the U.K. & Europe my base was at Weybridge. At lunch time I would often make a bee line (no pun intended Roger) to the Waitrose store you mention, but didn’t realise during my time visiting there, just how much was going on behind the scenes! I also didn’t realise the history behind Whiteley Village, a place I frequently passed on my travels in the area. Thank you for the memory, even if this doesn’t quite relate to route 192 or the Bee Line network. Excursions are often interesting….
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This has become one of my
favourite routes, a true turn up
and go high frequency city
route that I can now appreciate
as part Greater Manchesters
bus network with one ticket.
Andy Burnhams vision is
becoming the reality that he laid out to you at the Buses event in Manchester. Already I can hop on board any bus with my Bee Network card and purchase a day ticket £5 or even a £20 week ticket in 5 seconds, yes 5 seconds.
TfGM produce timetables for
all routes including the 192
which shows the realistic
headway of about every 10
minutes which is what
happens in the real world.
I’m disappointed Roger that you didnt take pictures to illustrate the warm internal ambiance of the buses with yellow handrails together with the excellent next stop information screens which at intervals show TfGMs six key objects for buses to tell passengers their vision.
I stayed in Manchester over the
weekend of the change over
and rode back to my hotel in
Stockport on 192 night service
at 2am that TfGM operated
free provided by First while the
changeover took place.
After a quick nap I returned
from Stockport four hours later
on Sunday morning aboard the
192 to find Manchesters buses
had been transformed
overnight branded for the Bee Network with every bus having Ticketer machines.
But only the 192 could have
three buses arriving together in
Manchester at 7am on that first Sunday morning.
The following morning I caught
a 192 at 05:30 from Stockport
boarding behind key workers
who were stunned and elated
that their Dayrider had gone
down from £7.70 to £5 making
a difference to their lives.
When coming home from Manchester I often catch the 192 for just £2 back to Stockport to catch the train in the peace and quiet rather than hustle and bustle of Piccadilly. Bustimes speeds up the journey enabling me to catch a garage run off on its last trip.
There’s no “scratching” on the
192 as you noticed all drivers just muck in and get on with it.
Well done to Stephen Rhodes
team at TfGM for bringing
Andy Burnhams vision for Greater Manchester buses to reality.
John Nicholas
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There has always been a network ticket for GM buses regardless of Operator….it may have gone down slightly in price, but it isn’t anything new.
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I don’t doubt there was a ticket for all operators, however Operators concentrated on hardselling products like DayRider and MegaRider.
You could buy a Tram and Bus ticket from machines on platforms but it was buried in a sub menu.
I was in Liverpool this morning and asked helpful chap in Travel Centre, “can I have a five day solo bundle but then load an all zone Saveaway and use it before I’ve used all the Solos on the bundle on my Metro card… or do I need a seperate Metro card?
No
Well how do I activate the Saveaway, you ask the driver, what on every journey, no just the first one.
Zone Tickets unlimited bus, rail and ferry travel for one price, we can only hope Mayor Steve Rotherham is man of his words.
JoNi
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Here in the West Midlands County we have a full range of all operator tickets, in fact thanks to the wise wisdom of Sir Andy Street CBE the former Mayor of West Midlands Combined Authority. you cant buy sole operator tickets for travel within the West Midlands County only all operators . In addition a Brum version of the Oystercard ; the Swift Card; is available in many forms including bus, rail , metro season tickets, pay as you go and SwiftGo which works out the cheapest far weekly from journeys undertaken. Brum was very lucky to have unlike currently a Mayor who actually used public transport on a daily and still does today.
It is of note that the original pilot scheme for Swift was carried out with Rotala and its excellent Diamond Bus West Midlands and not National Express West Midlands underling Rotalas approach to forward thinking and its approach which is continuing to lead the bus industry with innovation.
It is of note also that when Sir Andy Street CBE left office on 5th May 2024 day tickets on Swift started at £3 & are now £5.20 under the current idiot of a Mayor.
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Richard Parker was born in Bristol so at least he can’t be called a village idiot!
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That is a matter of judgement about Richard Parker although I haven’t been able to discover if he has a combine harvester or if he has if he has given anyone the key.
I understand he does own 20 acres in Worcestershire & regularly wears gaiters & corduroy pants given he is past 50…….
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This is a bit OTT! The 192 is running exactly as before franchising. Some vehicles were already equipped with next stop displays, although it has to be said that operation of these is very erratic. The previous day rider price was £5.50 (if I remember correctly, but certainly not £7.70). TfGM have always produced timetables for all routes.
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Manchester Dayrider was £6.30 before Bee Network launched £5 day ticket in city. I have found screenshot from Stagecoaches website. I knew it had dropped significantly as lady boarding in front of me thought she was being sold wrong ticket.
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In the West Midlands County when Sir Andy Street CBE held office as Mayor of West Midlands Combined Authority Day Tickets started at just £2.85, today under Labour’s Richard Parker as Mayor they are £5.20..
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I suspect that once the real costs of an operation like this start to manifest themselves a little bit of rationalisation might be the order of the day.
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It’s absurd trying to operate such a frequent service based on a timetable rather than headway. Even more absurd is publishing individual times.
Steve
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I’ve “parked and ridden” at Hazel Grove several times, though not in the last 3 years. It was always well-kept, with a Stagecoach inspector on site together with a cleaner who dealt with spilt drinks etc on arriving buses; and the toilets were impecccable. Such a shame to read Roger’s report on its decline.
Ian McNeil
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Some interesting comments about the frequencies of the 192 being “wasteful” or “excessive”. Has there been any change to the frequencies compared to when the 192 was operated commercially?
Usefully, the “Weaste Bus Depot” website has an archive of timetables, including one for the 192 from 2023: 23-SC-0539_Bus_Times_192_X92_(2023-09-03).pdf.
In that timetable, the service ran:
That timetable appears remarkably similar to the current one.
So, was the 192 similarly “wasteful” or “excessive” when it was commercial?
Malc M
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Interesting article as ever Roger. I suspect this picture is replicated in many other places over England, particularly since Covid – I’ve certainly seen many virtually empty sites, often served by lovely new shiny electric buses. This whole area would be worthy of an in depth review. As well as lack of bus priority it certainly doesnt help that most sat navs and parking apps exclude Park and Ride as a parking options for many towns and cities.
Andy Gibbons
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Does the High Peak service (now to Manchester Airport) Pass the location still ?
IF Greater Manchester (Stockport) expands south west to nibble the peak district (for Residential Development ?) will the 192 get further extended.
The 192 also does further “shorts” to Stockport College – there is a bus stand in one of the side roads that allows this. The 192 can also be blinded at Piccadilly for Stepping Hill etc but if delays occur will terminate short at Stockport. Stockport terminators used to use a different stop by the Shopping Centre I assume this has changed with the Bus Station redevelopment. Engines Idling seems so much dinosaur age now with electrics ideally for the environment must be(e) better , if the rapid acceleration / deceleration can be sorted to stop passengers being rattled around.
Never really understood why the park and ride wasnt (better?) integrated into the rail service= which needs enhancement too.
At about an hour for 12 odd miles the service compares with the likes of services in Leeds (Ilkley/ Otley via Headingly) or London (155 Tooting – Elephant (was always better when it went to Embankment maybe the 133 is better example these day).
It only takes delay though in Piccadilly ( does happen ) for the service to fall apart by the time it gets to Piccadilly Rail station !
If anything services should be enhanced (some bus priority might allow that) from every 10mins to every 8 or even 6. Passengers might be overloaded with a timetable but it is soon learnt its a rough guide for approximate (the worse is when two Stockports arrive when you want stepping hill as it doesnt seem as if extra south bound ones are normally added in- sometimes if spare driver there are), and is important for the last buses etc to the relevant through locations.
JBC Prestatyn
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A Magic Bus article Roger & pleasure to read. Thank you for a comprehensive review. Just an aside it would be interesting to compare it with the Brum Outer Circle 11 in terms of sheer bus numbers in the future.
Thanks again for a great read.
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Richard, bustimes shows 34 buses on the 192 at the moment and 32 on 11A plus 11C.
Ian McNeil
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I know exactly what the PVR is, I am actually currently sitting on the 11C now. What I meant was Roger actually ridding the route to compare the vehicles and standards with the 192 as the Outer Circle is still currently operated commercially under the TfWM Bus Alliance Partnership while the 192 is CA run.
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The Outer Circle is mostly devoid of bus priority and the nature of the route precludes turning buses short. Perhaps the 50 (Birmingham to Druids Heath) route would provide a better comparison as it is a radial route without a lot of different routes adding capacity.
It does look as though little has changed on the 192 under public control though.
Gareth Cheeseman
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Gareth, I was on an 11E that turned short at Harborne yesterday, Service curtailment is regular on the Outer Circle while the 50 is operated in two forms by the ever excellent & premium quality Diamond Bus to Maypole while West Midlands Travel continue to Druids Heath. Usually Rotala have 8 vehicles in service while WMT have 17 making on average 25 buses in service nowhere near the number on the Outer Circle.
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There have been 11Es for some time, but these are often scheduled to put buses in or out of the cycle rather than making time up; my point was that the 50 is similar in that it is a single route with very little duplication from other services. You are correct in the difference in PVRs with the 192 being a monster of a route.
I do not think that there are the scheduled part routes on the 50 that the 192 has.
Good to see I am not the only one who thinks of the big operator as Travel West Midlands!
Gareth Cheeseman
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A better West Midlands comparison with the 192 would be the 74 to Dudley with short workings to West Bromwich. It’s only every 6 mins with 12 min through service to Dudley. Bustimes tells me it has 34 workings but some of these are peak, as only 18 buses on the service at the moment.
The 74 used to be parallel by the 79 to Wolverhampton this was curtailed at West Brum, that can lead to big gaps if the M6 is playing up!
JoNi
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I had one occasion in which I’ve used the Hazel Grove P&R when I was going to a meeting in Stockport – at Stagecoach’s offices.
I think the site should be looked at as more a P&R for Stockport, there is a separate one at Hazel Grove railway station foe those going to Manchester.
I used the 199 from Buxton to Stockport recently, that doesn’t pass the site and with the 192 being so frequent doesn’t see too many short riders.
Along time ago I remember travelling the 192 route on the East Midland X67 Lincman.
Richard Warwick
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The car park at Hazel Grove station is tiny – if you are not there at the crack-of-dawn you can forget about finding a space.
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Minor typo – it’s Kirkmanshulme Lane at Longsight (just think how long since it’s been a lane).
The comment on Stockport spreading south west into the Peak District should have said south east.
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Thanks; corrected.
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“They” could adapt the old slogan from the days of trams on Victoria Embankment – “Always a bus in sight”.
Steven Saunders
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I don’t care what you say. It’s a great place to park and get into Stockport area for minimum walking (unlike the train). Not all the way to Manchester I grant you. Also fine for parking up and getting a 199 (still 27 in my head ) to Buxton.
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This is the high standards of Stagecoach Stockport depot operating the 192 when it was commercial continuing operating the 192 when it has been nationalised. It’s nothing to do with Stephen Rhodes, it’s the result of years of care by Chris Bowles and subsequent MD’s
The Bee buses do look good though, note to anyone : a simple strong colour looks best rather than anything complicated.
The other good thing is the simplified ticket range, just one weekly ticket, something of a serious own goal by the previous commercial operators lacking the understanding of ‘commercial’
wasn’t there a 192 Magic Bus at some stage?
It might be worth repeating this exercise with the most frequent route operated by Metroline to see if that works as well.
The blog does show that if Andy Burnham is serious about increasing bus patronage, bus priority will need to be significantly improved to increase bus speeds and reliability. However it’s been rumoured he sees a vacancy soon at the top of the Labour Party so he might well be off to Westminster.
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As far I was aware Stephen Rhodes now runs buses for TfGM, operators like Stagecoach are purely contractors (B2B2C).
Franchising is wasteful in both the process and use of vehicles remote from operational site e.g. Diamond Eccles based buses in far flung Rochdale.
The logical step is for TfGM to take direct control of routes to remove the inefficiency of franchising, harmonising wages with all profits directly invested with subsidies as necessary.
While Stagecoach Manchester may have performed well in the deregulated north west, however this will be little comfort to the family of a male who was killed by a bus company who flagrantly disobeyed legislation and whose directors were sent to prison.
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/2380683.company-directors-jailed-after-fatal-bus-crash/
Operators who baulk at the cost electrifying depots and get government grants to do so were quite happy to asset strip companies and take the money for profit.
John Nicholas
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This is dredging up some extremely old news from 2008! This had nothing to do with Stagecoach, but a dodgy outfit that traded as UK North. It sounds like what is being advocated here is a return to the pre-1986 GMTPTE. But that did not make profits and was in a spiral of decline with ever falling passenger numbers, requiring considerable subsidy.
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@anon 04/07 11:43
The spiral of decline has continued since 1986. In the metropolitan areas combined, bus patronage fell by a further 56% up to when Covid hit.
Specific figures for Greater Manchester are only available from 2009/10. These show ongoing decline through the years that followed, with another 30million passengers lost by 2018/19 (a drop of around 15%, before Covid).
Unless every service in Greater Manchester, at every time of day and every day of the week, became commercial in 1986, subsidy will have continued to be required. Subsidy may (or may not) have been used pre-1986 to hold the fares down.
Malc M
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There are earlier figures for GM. See the “GM Bus Strategy” document published 27/7/2023. The graph on pg. 18 goes back to 1975/76 with approx 550m passengers falling to approx 350m in 1985/86, a 36% loss. The point is that neither system has been able to stem the decline.
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In fairness, it should be added that some of this decline was probably inevitable given changes in population and employment.
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@Anon 08:45 7/7 and 16:17 7/7
Two points:
Population stats make interesting reading. In 2023, Greater London’s population was 31% higher than in 1981. But Greater Manchester’s population also grew over the same period, by 13%. Much of that growth has been since 2011, and yet bus ridership fell during the same period, having dropped by 12% by 2019, before Covid hit.
Passenger journeys per head of population stats, published by DfT, also make interesting reading. Figures by local authority go back as far as 2010. In the year to March 2010, Greater Manchester’s figure was 83.6 journeys per head. Nine years later, it had fallen to 67.2, a fall of just short of 20%. (London’s also fell, but less sharply and from a much higher starting point)
Malc M
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If you want to see how not to do it, come to Kuala Lumpur where I currently am.
The radial route 300 (which passes my hotel) is allegedly every 10 minutes or more frequent, but 45 minutes between buses isn’t unusual and there’s no route control evident so you get to see on the tracker that four buses are bunched together at each end of the route with nothing in between. That’s pretty normal for all the routes I’ve seen here.
Ticketing, well the buses are cheap but the only payment method currently accepted is a smartcard which in theory you can buy at LRT/MRT (metro) station “customer service offices” if they feel like selling them (but not at station ticket machines) or at petrol stations or convenience stores, again if they feel like selling them. Topping up is by cash at an agent (no charge) or by card at a station ticket machine (for which you get charged every time).
The three axle double-deckers are rather nice, especially as they’re air conditioned, but the locals need educating about using seats upstairs rather than cramming themselves between the doors downstairs. A bit like London passenger behaviour but with three times the numbers in the same space!
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In most other countries a route like that with a high frequency of high-capacity buses would long ago been converted into a tram route. There would be a turning circle at the P&R and a full car park. But we Brits think we like our double decker buses and somehow tolerate extremely slow journeys.
Stuart S
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Sampled the 192 yesterday. Took 63 minutes from Stockport to Manchester (1659 – 1802). Unbelievably busy. Doubt I will be repeating the journey for pleasure!
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Closure of M60 at Stockport due to multiple pile up was probably a contributory factor!
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