TfL’s £40m Travelcard gamble

Thursday 12th October 2023

This blog is a collaboration with my friend Geoff Marshall and his highly respected and much watched YouTube channel.

We teamed up last week to test out what will happen in January when time runs out for London’s popular one-day Travelcard.

Click here to see Geoff’s video setting out our findings after travelling from Guildford for a typical day out in London comparing the cost of the endangered ‘all-in’ integrated Travelcard paper ticket with buying a return rail ticket plus tapping in and out on journeys around the Capital using an Oystercard or bank card, which in three months time will be the only option for passengers.

Mayor Khan gave the required six months notice to terminate the 1995 Travelcard Agreement with Train Operating Companies (TOCs) on 20th July, so we’re just approaching the three month halfway point before that decision comes into effect. So far there are no signs of any negotiations between the parties to give TfL a bigger share of the pooled income and thus perhaps save the Travelcard.

Sadiq Khan left the door ajar when giving notice by stating “should the DfT and TOCs propose an alternative arrangement during this notice period which is financially acceptable to TfL and allows it to meet the requirements of its funding agreement with Government, this notice could (by agreement) be retracted and Day Travelcards remain available”.

However with the DfT controlling all things rail and in turn the Treasury controlling the DfT and a Prime Minister having zero interest in public transport there’s unlikely to be a deal of that kind even though many Conservative MPs have called for a rethink in response to feedback from their unhappy constituents.

Under its post Covid funding agreement with Government TfL need to find between £0.5 billion and £1 billion in either substantial cost savings or significant additional revenue (or a bit of both) by the end of this year. Actions instituted already include Freedom Passes having their morning peak validity curtailed, non-refundable increased charges introduced for an Oyster card and Underground fares to Heathrow Airport substantially increased (peak fares applying all day). Withdrawing the Day Travelcard is part of this revenue raising plan with expectations it will raise £40 million.

I’m sure expert bean counters have beavered away over enormous spread sheets to be confident of that additional revenue figure but I puzzle how they could possibly know how much people use their Travelcards since no detail registers when you flash your ticket at bus drivers or pass through gatelines. Surveys have undoubtedly been done in the past but do they represent today’s travel patterns? There must be an element of guesswork and broad assumptions involved which is why Geoff and I decided to carry out our own research.

Three factors are at play.

Firstly are passengers making multiple journeys all over zones 1 to 6 with their Travelcard or just a couple of trips in zone 1 from (and back to) a mainline railway station? The answer to this will be key to whether TfL will be better or worse off come 2024. Will passengers spend more in fares directly payable to TfL as they tap away on buses, the Underground, Overground, DLR, trams and the Elizabeth line (all subject to the daily caps of course) than TfL currently receives as a share out of the revenue taken by TOCs when selling the Travelcard?

Geoff and I found Guildford to be a typical “average” origin station in the Home Counties with a £7.40 “on-cost” for the Travelcard (£32.20) compared to the off-peak return (£24.80). Passengers need to make more than two Zone 1 journeys on the Underground (twice times £2.70 = £5.40) and a bus journey (£1.75) making £7.15 before they’re would breach the extra cost of buying a Travelcard on the next journey. After that, the daily cap would apply, which for Zone 1 is £8.10. So looking at it simplistically (but see point three below) TfL would only gain slightly more income – 70p more in fact (£8.10 cap minus the £7.40 Travelcard “on cost”).

Secondly, and complicating the assessment further is the widely different add on prices passengers pay for a Day Travelcard. Like me, you may wonder why there isn’t a standard add-on price from wherever you travel into London in the same way passengers in London pay a standard £15.20 if they want a paper Zones 1-6 Travelcard rather than the £14.90 Oyster cap (deliberately 30p lower to encourage passengers not to buy Travelcards).

For example, as explained above, from our test station, Guildford, an off peak return rail fare to Waterloo is £24.80 whereas an off-peak Day Travelcard is £32.20. A difference of £7.40.

More expensive is Chelmsford from where a passenger pays £25.00 for an off-peak return to Liverpool Street and £33.50 for a Travelcard making a difference of £8.50.

However, the difference becomes less from other sample origin stations. Northampton has a £38.30 off-peak day return and £43.60 off-peak Day Travelcard. A difference of only £5.30,

Travel into London from Brighton and an ‘any permitted’ off-peak day return is £35.40 with the Travelcard at £40.90 bringing the difference down to just £4.50.

The lowest difference I could find is from Birmingham New Street from where an off-peak return restricted to London NorthWestern trains is £39.00 with its equivalent Travelcard priced at £41.00 an incrediblly low £2.00 extra to enjoy the freedom of travelling all over London. No wonder TfL are miffed.

At the other end of the scale a passenger also from Birmingham New Street buying a flexible (‘any permitted’) off-peak return (which includes Avanti West Coast trains) costs £65.80 with the equivalent Travelcard costing £78.00, a hefty difference of £12.20.

So, the ‘break even point’ from a passenger’s perspective of whether the use they intend to make of buses, trains and Underground etc while in London justifies buying a Travelcard rather than just a return rail ticket and tap away varies depending on which station they are travelling from to London as well as what travel they undertake on arrival.

And you might think TfL’s share of the revenue similarly varies which brings me to the third factor – what share of each Travelcard sold by a TOC is handed over to TfL?

Not surprisingly there’s no simple answer. The 1995 Travelcard Agreement sets out the apportionment arrangements in far too much detail to include here, suffice to say the percentage share TfL receives varies considerably according to what TOC has sold the ticket and what type of ticket it is – whether a Day Travelcard or a longer duration one (week through to annual – all of which are continuing and not being withdrawn). It also varies according to whether the Travelcard is sold at what’s called a ‘Joint Station’ (eg Amersham, Barking etc) or not. The Agreement also includes provisions for changes to the Apportionment Factors following surveys.

I naively thought the bulk of the difference in price between a return rail ticket and a Travelcard went to TfL with perhaps a small percentage shared among the TOCs for journeys made within London on TOC run services within Zones 1-6.

In fact, the Apportionment Factors refer to the entire price of the Travelcard from the originating station so not surprisingly the greatest percentage goes to the TOC to cover the journey from the originating station into London. Typical share outs for a southern based TOC (eg sold by southeastern, Southern and SWR) are 70% to the TOC and 30% to TfL. Over at c2c that TOC receives 76% and TfL 24%. Great Northern is a Brexit style split with 52% to the TOC and 48% to TfL.

An extract from the 72 page 1995 Travelcard Agreement showing some of the Apportionment Factors.

So, applying this back to our Guildford example where TfL receives 30.5% of Travelcard revenue and SWR gets 69.5% (that’s according to the original 1995 Travelcard Agreement – it could well have been updated since) …….. as the off-peak Travelcard is priced at £32.20 it will be shared out as £9.80 to TfL and £22.40 to SWR.

So in the post January abolishment of Travelcard scenario and a passenger buys a return ticket from Guildford to Waterloo, SWR will receive all of the £24.80 the passenger pays for that ticket meaning the TOC is immediately better off by £2.40 (ironically by selling a cheaper ticket). TfL’s income on the other hand will very much depend on what journeys that passenger makes while in London. Hence the gamble.

Geoff and I reckon the majority of leisure travellers using Travelcards in the off-peak are probably going shopping, visiting a museum, sightseeing, seeing a show or visiting a friend/relative. We’d guess the majority of those will involve a couple of journeys (there and back) in zones 1 or 2. If so, that will bring in an average £5.50 (either £5.40 or £5.60) to TfL, which is £4.30 less than TfL is getting under the current Travelcard regime.

Far from making an extra £40 million, on this analysis, TfL will be losing out.

But, here’s the thing. I’m not an expert bean counter and may have got all my assumptions wrong including what Apportionment Factors are currently in play – the figures I’ve quoted above (from the original 1995 Agreement) may be out of date and no longer applicable.

But what it does show is it is not as simple as it looks. Whether TfL becomes better off will very much depend on passenger reaction. Some may carry on tapping away regardless in complete ignorance of what they’re paying reassured they’ll hit a one day £14.90 cap, others may become more price conscious as they see the individual fares for each journey displayed on the gateline as they tap out, while still others may be put off from travelling completely, not least families who can currently take advantage of some excellent deals on Family Travelcards but in the new regime will need to buy a Visitor Oyster card (£7 non refundable) for each child aged 11-15 and go through the faff of getting it registered for a special discount to be applied enabling half fare when tapping.

I understand 12 million Day Travelcards are sold in a year. Tfl’s £40 million additional revenue target therefore means it’s looking to gain £3.33 for each passenger currently buying a Day Travelcard and switches to tapping away once the ticket is withdrawn come January. That’s quite a gamble, not least if the assumptions outlined above are anywhere near reality.

One final observation to illustrate just how crazy various pricing anomalies on the railways are, my £32.20 off-peak Travelcard from Guildford was £1.30 more expensive than had I used ‘split ticketing’ and bought an off-peak day return to Surbiton (the Zone 6 boundary) for £15.70 and separately purchased a Zones 1-6 Travelcard valid from there costing £15.20 making a total price paid of £30.90. Even the member of staff in Guildford’s ticket office seemed surprised when I pointed that out.

Don’t forget to give Geoff’s superb video a watch here.

Roger French

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Comments are welcome but please keep them relevant to the blog topic and add your name (or an identifier). Thank you.

65 thoughts on “TfL’s £40m Travelcard gamble

  1. The DfT/RDG will never reach an agreement to give Khan more of the share. If it puts people back into cars, Khan will still gain the extra congestion fees. There is no way the DfT/RDG will give any of their revenue share to the Mayor as they don’t stand to lose much as people will buy tickets to London Terminii which will still be valid on the tube across London (except for some odd reason to Liverpool Street!).

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    1. As a pensioner, a large number of us meet up, travel off peak once or twice a month. We are a cost sensitive bunch, as well as loosing the convenience of the travel card, if costs rise, we will be voting with our feet and going to London a lot less , so the off peak trains will be even emptier.

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  2. Personally I cannot see how wealthy residents of the Home Counties can morally justify having thier journeys in Central London subsidsed in effect by Transport for London. I fully support the withdrawal of the Travelcard from TfL when alternative and more suitable payment methods such as Oyster & Contactless are avaliable for residents outside Greater London. As for the pathetic excuse of the withdrawal of Railcard reductions causing hardship no such discounts are given on tickets and passes issued by Transport for West Midlands for use on West Midlands Railways.

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    1. 1. The point Roger F is making is that TfL may actually be worse off. There is no need for ‘wealthy residents of the Home Counties’ (though I think you may be stereotyping there…..) to be subsidised, but the argument is more that the simplicity of Travelcard encourages people to use public transport. It may well be that with full understanding of usage patterns and and or tweak to price and/or apportionment, the facility could be retained.

      2. Last time I checked, my Railcard was valid for journeys within the West Midlands, just the same as elsewhere on the rail network. And I presume there are wealthy residents in the West Midlands who have them too. Solihull I believe is quite well-off for example……

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      1. Please CHECK YOUR FACTS before criticising me there are NO Railcard discounts on Transport for West Midlands DAYTRIPPER, NETWORK DAY TICKETS or any other ticket issued by Transport for West Midlands for use on West Midlands Railways. As for the Travelcard if you wish your ticket outside the TfL area to be subsidsed by TfL that is a matter for you. On my weekly visits on business to London I always use a Chiltern Advance ticket & Oyster on TfL I frankly believe it is immoral to take advantage of the Travelcard discounts when I am not a resident of Greater London if others disagree such a yourselves that is a matter for yourself & others & at least I am honest enough to give my views without cowardly hiding behind “Anoymous”

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        1. How on earth is “rbjtasb4f994b035” supposed to be any more identifiable than “Anonymous”? It looks like the random string of characters thrown up as usernames by bots on Reddit!

          Don’t worry, we do know it’s actually Richard Jones posting because of the tone of your post, the aggression you display when someone dares to disagree with you and the way you throw around allegations like cowardice – but you could post as “anonymous” without logging in and we’d still all know it was you.

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          1. I have been into my Word Press account and altered the default to my actual name instead of my account name created by WordPress apologies for any confusion however the problem lies with French himself whose recent blog upgrade seems to have created all these numerous “Anonymous ” posts regrettablly .

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            1. It’s not Roger French’s fault that WordPress have upgraded their systems and created a problem – something which he has previously commented on more than once. It’s also not Roger French’s fault that you hadn’t set up your WordPress account to show a name rather than the random ID they’d provisionally allocated you.

              I really don’t understand why you find it necessary to be such an aggressive and odious man.

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            2. It was my understanding that names could not be changed however I was happy to be corrected by a colleague and have updated the information correctly. I cannot comment on French and his relationship with WordPress that is quite simply am matter for him.

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    2. You are missing the point. It is not about how wealthy people are, is is about freedom of movement. If a one stop journey by train in Surrey is more expensive than a car journey, then people will not be prepared to give up their cars so easily. Everything that is happening in terms of transport is not providing alternatives, only finding short term solutions to bad financial management.

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      1. I am not missing the point we have budgets at Transport for West Midlands as do Transport for London it is not the responsibility of the local transport authority to make alternatives avaliable to those who are not resident in either the West Midlands County or Greater London that is the responsibility of the Train Operating Companies & Department of Transport who if they wished could fund any national transport scheme they wished. The Travelcard scheme in its current form is a burden to Transport for London & I fully support its withdrawal when there are perfectly adequate replacements.

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        1. You are missing the point. TfL has a broad remit to support the London economy. If the Mayor believes that the economic benefits in terms of employment and spending from more visitors to London justify the subsidy, then he is both morally and financially justified in instructing TfL to that effect.

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          1. Rubbish our own excellent Mayor has a broad remit to support the West Midlands economy. and equally believes that the economic benefits should benefit both visitors and residents however it is morally reprensible if that is at the expense of currently sparse budgets with the London Travelcard currently is. Difficult decisions are currently needed fiscally & for one applaud the London Mayor for taking this route for the benefit of his own Greater London residents rather than those who live beyond his boundaries who are more than able to fund the full cost of thier fares especially when alternatives such as Oyster are available to residents and non residents alike.

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          2. I am 63, I drive 18 miles a day around the south circular to work which takes anywhere from 45 mins, Sat/Sun to 2 hrs Mon – Fri. It takes me about 50 minutes to get home leaving work at 8pm. Once the blanket introduction of 20mph around the Sth Circ is introduced the journey into work Mon -Fri won’t be affected by more then about 15 mins to 2hrs 15mins, however travel into work Sat/Sun will take approx 20-30 mins longer as will my return journey for all 7 days. I have an over 60s travel card which I can’t use until after 9:30 am, so I won’t get into work before 11 am and working the same length of day as I do now means I can’t leave work until at least 10pm getting back to my local station at about 11:30 – midnight which will still cost more than driving in and back. I would need to use between 2 and 4 trains in each direction depending on engineering works/station closures etc. Train, tube and bus services are filthy, unreliable and over priced, drivers on Southeastern seem to think it funny to turn the heating on in the summer and off in the winter, plus for hood measure, opening all the windows before leaving the depot to make sure everyone is super cold.lf I were to travel from say 8 am Mon -Fri it would cost me about £20 a day, haven’t bought a season ticket for many years now but I’m guessing the savings are minimal, not forgetting that trains to my local station are only twice an hour after about 8pm and only 3 times an hour peak time. Leaving early I would need to buy a travel card including bus and tube which I shouldn’t need. All I can see is lose, lose, lose. I could retire, pay no income tax on earnings, no national insurance, no fuel duty on petrol, no vehicle excise duty, no vat on car insurance. But I can then then draw my pension in a few years and cost everyone money rather than contribute. I don’t want to do that, I want to work until I can’t anymore, drive to work until I can’t anymore, pay all the above taxes until I can’t anymore. That fucking little shit Khan has no answer except maybe I buy a bicycle and cycle 18 miles each way in the rain, snow etc. I also have estimate I would need to catch at least 9 buses an d take a minimum, with no other traffic in the way, of over 3 hours each way. So unless Khunt wants to pay business relocation fees, plus losing long standing customers, what am I going to do? Many people facing the same conundrum.

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        2. What a load of absolute nonsense, so for families that are travelling to London using a family railcard or couples using 2together they are somehow being subsidised travelling to, in, staying in, spending in, the capital boosting tourism. That’s part of millions of people a years planned visits using a simple no stress, no need to worry open travelcard to get around. I suppose Canadians, Americans, Chinese tourists that aren’t even uk residents are also on such a winning subsidy are they despite choosing the uk to spend their money in visiting. Talk about being narrow minded, either that or small minded delusion unable to see the larger picture.

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          1. Transport for London quite simply like Transport for West Midlands exists to coordinate transport for those travelling within Greater London & West Midlands County they do not exist to subsisde matters beyond thier operating areas or remit. Yes some TfL & TfWM bus services operate beyond their respective boundaries but this is to benefit residents who need to travel beyond the boundaries in London & West Midlands such as the 465 to Epsom & 35 to Lichfield. You seem to be confusing the separate work of the office of Mayor of London with Transport for London as here in Brum with the actions of West Midlands Combined Authority with Transport for West Midlands. My comments are solely based on the work of TfL & TfWM and not the separate work & responsibilities of Mayor Khan & Street you allude too.

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            1. In addition the responsibility of Family Railcards & 2together lies with the TOCs – Train Operating Companies and not TfL. Discounts are unchanged to London Stations and unaffected by TfLs decision on Travelcards which simply applies to Bus, Tube & Tram within Greater London which are adequately covered by the Oystercard scheme which can be used in lieu of a Travelcard.

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    3. Well National Express are not doing well. Their shares have crashed to a record low and they have suspended their dividend and intend offloading their US Schools business

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      1. What have Mobico PLC got to do with TfL & Travelcards I was under the impression that French was going to remove posts that were not relevant to the blog directly or is he simply having one rule for those middle class individuals from the Home Counties & those of us who are working class Brummies?

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        1. If you are actually referring to West Midlands Travel Limited trading as National Express West Midlands since 3rd July 2023 they are no longer responsible for tickets and passes on buses within the West Midlands Combined Authority all of which are now TfWM N Tickets. West Midlands Travel Limited continues to issue its own Daysavers & Travelcards for journeys which originate outside the West Midlands County. What NATIONAL EXPRESS has to do with a discussion on the acceptance of Travelcards on TfL services is anyone’s guess.

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        2. Richard Jones wrote “I was under the impression that French was going to remove posts that were not relevant to the blog directly”

          I do hope so. It’ll mean most of your obnoxious attacks will be deleted and this place will be a much nicer place for the rest of us to carry on discussing the industry and even make some constructive criticism.

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          1. I was under the impression that the information French has placed after each blog that he welcomes comments on his blog but they should be kept to the matter in hand. If I have misunderstood this direction I am happy to be corrected.

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          2. It is unfortunate that you have had to result to personal attacks stating “aggressive and odious man” the moment one has to resort to this level then it is clear one has lost any argument you may have and quite frankly using derogatory and bullying terms such as that you clearly have no place on Mr French’s excellent blog which is loved and appreciated by the rest of us most of whom like myself welcome and thank Mr French whole hardheartedly for the both the excellent and hard work he undertakes in presenting such a fine a blog and allowing us all to express our own opinions on the topics he covers. I am sure I speak for the majority of others other than yourself in taking this opportunity in thanking Roger French OBE.

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  3. From Guildford there’s a better split ticket option. A Cheap Day return to Wimbledon (£16.20) and Zones 1-3 Oyster Cap (£9.60) gets you a large area of London for £25.80. And it’s easy to change to the District Line at Wimbledon, or get Thameslink to Kings Cross. Wimbledon works in this way from many SWR stations.

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    1. Tickets to London Terminals are not valid on the Tube (with a couple of exceptions on certain lines). For example, an off peak day return from Brighton to London Terminals (route Any Permitted) can only be used to National Rail terminals Victoria, London Bridge, Waterloo etc. No validity at all by Underground

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  4. Sorry, trying to leave a comment but it comes up ‘Page not Found’.

    If TfL withdraw One Day Travelcards, and end up regretting the decision, then they won’t be able to renegotiate to put themselves in the same position as before they were withdrawn. i.e. the TOCs will be in a strong negotiating position, and will be able to negotiate a smaller percentage going to TfL.

    Maybe this is why the TOCs have been silent on the issue. As you say, the vast majority of people are only doing one return journey within Zone 1. And it will be off-putting to families, due to the faff of obtaining child rate fares on TfL

    Greg Rawlins

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    1. In fact the TOCs (Rail Delivery Group) did write to TfL on this, concluding as follows:

      “We therefore consider that withdrawing Day Travelcards is a retrograde step which carries potential economic risks to the Train Companies, TfL and the wider London economy. It also seems to represent a step which is likely to have a negative impact on social inclusion.
      Given all of the above, and particularly the potential price impacts customers currently using these tickets will face, as well as the challenges for customers travelling in groups, we are keen to work together with TfL to identify alternative solutions to enable us to continue to offer the valuable (and valued) Day Travelcard product to our joint customers.”

      It’s on pages 58-61 of Appendix B – EqIA Supporting Documents (Appendices 1-5). https://www.london.gov.uk/md3142-withdrawal-day-travelcards-tfl-network

      Submissions by Mark Harper (page 62; at least one page not scanned) and Trainline (pages 75-86) are also available to read, among others.

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  5. Well, I’ve got a Senior Railcard which gives me a third off. There are so many Railcards for off-peak travel only a single person aged about 50 might be Railcard-less these days, even then they might have a Network Railcard. So in my case the Travelcard premium is around £5 instead of around £7.

    Unless I go to the hassle of buying an Oyster Card, then taking it to an open Underground station ticket office to get the Senior Railcard paired with the Oyster Card, I’d be paying full price for Underground travel, instead of the third off. I’m unlikely to go to the trouble of buying an Oyster Card as I only make occasional trips to London, and generally it’s just one return journey in Zone 1.

    What I might do is avoid Underground travel by taking a bus or planning my journey to terminate at a Central London Thameslink station, where my Southern Keycard with KeyGo can be tapped in and out. It would be nice if I could use this card on the Underground too, but by the time something like that happens I’ll be dead, I think.

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  6. I’m only an occasional foreign visitor to London, but it seems to me there are some rides you can only make with a travelcard. At least, a few years ago I wanted to ride the Overground all round London, and make several other rides, thinking the Oyster travel cap would just kick in, but I got hit with a couple of penalty fares, maybe even three. I think the rides just took too long for normal Oyster trips, but I assume a travelcard would just stay valid.

    Gerben Vos, Amsterdam.

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    1. There are indeed maximum journey times when you travel with an Oyster card or contactless payment device. They vary depending on what day you travel, whether it’s a peak/off-peak touch-in (weekdays only) and the zones you travel through.

      If the journey between a touch-in and touch-out exceeds them, the system marks both touches as unpaired and you incur a maximum fare for each.

      Also, any journey covered solely by a Travelcard can be done with Oyster or contactless. (A few exceptions to the reverse exist)

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  7. Interesting those around Greater London are turning to their Conservative MP ‘s to complain as their boss,Rishi Sunak,has shown his complete contempt for public transport and the environment and had he not been at the Conservative Party Conference at the time I would have thought Sir Rishi was up at Sycamore Gap with a chain saw.Perhap planning a new motorway through the Gap paid for with diverted HS2 funds? Although he’ll have to put aside more funds now to send weapons to Israel along with the Ukraine and who knows where else soon? Armenia/Azerbaijan?Serbia/Kosovo?the Bosnian Federation?

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    1. I have a feeling the 35 billion will go the same way as the Boris bus. Sounds nice, but completely untrue.

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      1. From what’s been announced so far, most of the 35 billion will end up being used on road maintenance rather than for public transport.

        Half of public transport projects announced have already happened (Metrolink extensions to Chorlton and Manchester airport, for example!) or, like the Leamside line, have already been backtracked on.

        Sunak’s “Network North” plan appears to have most of its _committed_ spending in the south of England, which is another snub to the north. I’m sure that surprises absolutely nobody.

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  8. Or for 20p more than the fare for an off-peak return to Waterloo (£24.80), buy an off-peak return to Kentish Town, which will give you a two-way tube journey in London to and from KGX, with the option (on the outward journey) of alighting early at any central London tube station.
    Bizarrely, from Bookham, the fare to Kentish Town is actually than to Waterloo: buying an anytime return to Kentish Town saves nearly £2 on the fare to Waterloo, even if you want to go no further than the South Bank.

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  9. As you rightly state, the Travelcard Agreement between Transport for London and the ToCs is complex, with the result that TfL usually gets a bigger slice of revenue than a simple calculation of the difference between the cost of the outboundary All Zones One Day Travelcard and the corresponding day return ticket to ‘London Terminals’

    Some time ago, I used to work in a London and Southeast ticket office and, when a passenger requested a cheap day return to London, it was very easy to upsell to an All Zones Travelcard because of the modest price differential. Indeed, many passengers who weren’t even planning to use bus or underground services when they got to London were nevertheless happy to upgrade to a Travelcard ‘just in case’! I therefore suspect that, by withdrawing the Travelcard, TfL is potentially likely to lose more revenue than it will gain.

    Carllo

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  10. As an out of London oap bus pass holder, I often get a Travelcard, but have already got free use of LRT busses, indeed if in the future I go for the day and use the bus pass it will cost LRT for my travel!

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    1. As an out of town OAP bus pass holder you would be welcome to use the TfWM Bus Network across Birmingham, The Black Country & Coventry free after 09:28 weekdays up to 23:00 & anytime on weekends & Bank Holidays if you wished to travel before the free period on weekdays by presenting your Concessionary Pass you would be able to travel on any bus in West Midlands County for just £1.50. Transport for West Midlands welcome all English Concessionary Pass holders to our comprehensive Brummie Bus Network 364 days a year.

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      1. I too have an ENCTS card, and a few years ago I did indeed spend a day travelling on buses in the West Midlands. Unfortunately my Cambridgeshire-issued card was rejected on every one of the then NXWM buses that I used. All the drivers were very good about it and agreed with my observation that the card was “foreign”. The next day I contacted WMPTE about the problem, and after they had apologised and I had supplied the list of routes and times that they requested, they came up with the explanation that the Cambridgeshire card number range had not been enabled in the latest WMPTE software (although it was previously). The problem had been corrected the next time I visited.

        Later I had a similar experience elsewhere – I don’t recall the location, but it was an area served by 2 of the major operators, where the buses of one of them accepted my card but those of the other didn’t. The next day I phoned the non-acceptor and explained to them why and how they needed to reset their software.

        Ian McNeil

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        1. To keep on topic remember no ECTS passed issued is compatible with TfL machines. We had a similar problem within the West Midlands with passes issued by Torbay Council which also were not enabled however Devons were whilst Arriva Midlands North machines seem to reject everyone’s pass at times equally Midland Red (South) Limited machines struggle with Swift on occasions on TfWM services. All issues are regularly raised at TfWM with the bus operators. At the age 55 the mere mention of the WMPTE ; which was finally dissolved on 16th June 2016; always brings back memories aged 7 of going to my swimming club on Saturday Mornings armed with 2p for the Wumpty auto fare box on the 202 on my own dreaming that one day our local swimming baths would be replaced by one of the most advanced Aquatic Centres in Europe……..

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  11. You might have thought that a simple increase in the Travelcard fare would deal with most of the problems, but I guess this is mostly about politics and it being necessary for there to be a “winner” (that the travelling public would mostly be coming out as “losers” obviously being of little consequence).

    Paul

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  12. I’m sad that the day travelcard will go. I have just this year adopted the least hassle system for my regular weekly trips from Basingstoke – that is to buy an offpeak day travelcard and to load it onto an Southwest Railway Touch Smartcard. I can now and until January just tap all the way to and from Northeast London with just one card, and still get my Railcard discount.

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  13. This is an entirely speculative post based on thoughts arising from my post immediately above.

    First, could TfL set itself up to sell National Rail tickets online? This is now done by a mildly bewildering variety of independent organisations, so TfL joining the fray would be a relatively sane addition to the fold.

    Second, could TfL introduce a second Smartcard, but based on the national ITSO standard rather than the Oyster standard? All Underground gates accept ITSO cards, so the technology is already set up. The tricky bit might be getting those cards accepted on the National Rail network to from stations which have ITSO card readers. I have found it bewildering when trying to buy smartcard enabled tickets that cross TOC boundaries, in spite of these all apparently working to the same ITSO standard. For clarity, I’m thinking terms of normal tickets loaded onto the cards, not Pay As You Go.

    Finally, TfL could sell a Smartcard-only Underground/Overground/DLR/Tram equivalent of PlusBus, setting their own price at a level that suits them.

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  14. The post above has hit the nail on the head. Tfl may feel they are losing out from the current arrangement.

    So the rail operators can sell a one day Travelcard add on for a fixed price that suits Tfl depending wether it’s adult/child etc, and the TOC’s ( aka the Dft ) would get their 8% commission. As said above similar to PlusBus. The only problem would be that railcard discounts would still have to be valid (I think) but as the Senior railcard is only available after the mid morning then that could be less of a problem. Transparent for the passenger, and Tfl would be clear what revenue they will get

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  15. Thanks for this blog. Yet again, the transport professionals cannot sit down and agree a sensible way to share the proceeds of what almost everyone agrees is a profitable venture which will encourage extra use of public transport. I know some say the politicians should not be let near this, but if people are writing to their MPs it indicates that the transport people – of whom some at least are supposedly customer-friendly, innovative and enterprising – are failing. Well, they have three months …

    Rick Townend

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I think the transport professionals would be glad to talk the problem through …. but TfL won’t negotiate, and problems of this sort can only be sorted by negotiation.
      Mayor Khan has form in this …. witness the ULEZ expansion in the summer.
      It’s only worth talking if both sides are willing ….
      greenline727

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      1. Given the way the TOCs messed TfL around over the expansion of Oyster into the suburbs I suspect there is a serious lack of goodwill on the TfL side in these negotiations.

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      2. TOCs won’t talk because their hands are tied by the DfT or, as painful experience has shown, if they do talk and come up with a mutually satisfactory agreement which the DfT is willing to sign off on, it gets torpedoed at the last minute by the utterly cussed HM Treasury who won’t allow you to spend a farthing to earn a guinea. But RDG will always spin it as amazing, regardless.

        TfL are sick and tired of the the whole dysfunctional National Rail TOC/RDG/DfT setup so don’t consider it worth even trying to talk, and who can blame them?

        Six of one and half a dozen of the other, really.

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  16. And of course, there’s the fact that people in London use Travelcards for journeys inside London. My most recent daytrip used a £15.20 Z1-6 Travelcard (of which TfL gets some money) instead of the more expensive £16.90 return rail fare (of which I assume TfL sees nothing). So now that trip will both cost me more money and generate TfL less. Great.

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  17. It just goes to show the whole pricing system for customers , clients , passengers or whatever they are referred to needs throwing away and starting from scratch . Has any other country got or comes close to such a ludicrous fare structure ? The sale of area rover tickets is far below what it should be due to only being able to find them in “Best Kept Secrets” pages of TOC websites .

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  18. I posted a longer comment when you first published this but it never appeared. I’m not going to make the same points I did there again. But another factor is forgetting to touch in/out. Those of use like me used to always using a Day Travelcard are used to not having to use any of the validators in places without ticket barriers, like the DLR, Waterloo and City Line and some interchanges like Finsbury Park (and I think Stratford for e.g. Central Line?). It’s going to be very easy to forget to swipe my card somewhere and end up with a “maximum fare” (fine) and end up paying more. No worries with this with a Travelcard. Not to mention those validators on the DLR can have a queue to use them when it’s busy, which with a Travelcard you can bypass.

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  19. I actually live in Guildford. I have a senior railcard and a (very old) Oyster card.

    In order to benefit from split tickets (I believe) I have to catch trains that stop where the journey is split. This means an instant time penalty. If I want the best price I have to get off at Surbiton or Wimbledon (for example) in each direction and touch in/out with my Oyster card.

    In order to add my railcard discount to my Oyster card I have to visit an LT-staffed office or an Oyster shop. You will not find either of these in Surbiton. I have discovered that there is no railcard/Oyster discount for a long period around the evening peak, and it’s very hard to find out what the railcard discount does to daily caps (if anything!).

    I do not take a subsidy from London taxpayers. The price of Guildford to London rail tickets and Travelcards greatly exceeds the cost of providing the service so I am not being subsidised by anybody.

    Steven

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  20. Please do not blame ‘Transport Professionals’ The problem is between a politician who does not like the Government/Dft and Government/Dft who don’t like the politician. Professionals would sort this because they know that simplified fares generate revenue.

    The point made above about maximum fares is also very pertinent, a couple of years back Tfl had £150m+ in overpaid fares sitting on its balance sheet

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  21. I’m old enough to remember travelling to London before the advent of Travelcards and know how much easier they have made my journeys. It just makes life so simple, buy one ticket at your local
    station and that’s it.
    The general public don’t now or care whose fault this all is, they just want a nice easy journey.

    Nigel Turner

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  22. Isn’t the issue with ‘split ticketing’ at Surbiton that you need to leave your Guildford train and ‘touch in’ on a card reader?

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  23. The cynic in me thinks that this is in part so that when (and by current standing it is a when not if) there is a new administration running the country, they’ve got an easy win in bringing back the Travelcard.

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  24. There is another angle to this as well – for those of us who have misgivings about providing personal data to large organisations, the travelcard enables you to move around London without doing so. As you say, you can board buses and move through gatelines. Removing travelcards removes your ability to opt out of journey-related data surveillance.

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  25. Until quite recently, you could buy a return from Oxford (and many other places I imagine) to Zone 1 – i.e a national rail journey with a single tube journey added (and vice versa). That was slightly cheaper than a travelcard. I never saw the rationale for withdrawing that. I wonder if it will come back…

    Since the route from Oxford coincides with the Elizabeth line route from Reading, I just checked the fare from Oxford to Tottenham Court Road. Off-peak Single is £34.70, whereas a single to Paddington is £31.70. Adding a contactless/Oyster trip to the latter is of course £2.70. There’s another bizarre split ticketing case.

    The weirdness of Travelcard fares and revenue splits is just a part of the wider craziness in ticket pricing.

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  26. For my regular journeys from Maidenhead, it’s a huge increase.
    Current – £13.45 (with Network Railcard)
    Without a ODT, there’s a choice of either £20.40 under a contactless cap (no railcard discount available) or £17.85 for a railcard CDR to Paddington plus Z1/2 cap.

    TfL seemingly believe it’ll make them more money. It’ll actually make them less, because a lot of my journeys are discretionary and I won’t be making as many. Days out exploring the network won’t happen for a start, because of the risk of hitting maximum fares, and going in ‘just for fun’ won’t happen anywhere near as much. I’ve never bought a CDR before, but will if my destination is walkable from Paddington, and TfL will get less for that.

    There’s also the night effect… GWR barrier staff don’t work after 9 or 10pm (depending on station) so very few people touch in or out on the packed late night trains. Anyone who used to buy a paper travel card would have paid for the journey… come January it’ll be free and they’ll only pay for a single into town. Again, TfL are losing rather than gaining revenue.

    Plus of course the ridiculously retrograde step of removing one of the few integrated travel products we have in this country, increasing friction for a wide range of customers.

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  27. I sometimes commute off-peak from Brighton to London, and the Travelcard is handy for travel within London, to my office in Zone 3.
    If I am forced to buy a return to Victoria or to London Bridge, do I lose the flexibility to travel via either route? In times of disruption, the flexibility is very convenient, especially in winter when having to wait on a cold platform is no fun. At present, if the NRE app shows disruption, I just go by tube a station on the alternate route.

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  28. Having just moved from woking to Guildford.
    Most of the money making schemes are aimed at preventing commuters from making savings.
    I now have to get to a station either worplesdon or Woking which must now include a drive.
    Parking is now virtually empty carparks and must be costing SWT a lot. But at nearly £10 for rural stations or £20 for mainline. The commute to London is now about £40 a day from worplesdon and more from Woking. For that price from Woking you usually have to take your own seat with you to be able to sit down.
    So the usual weekly seasons only save on about day 4 of travel. So even the new 3 day seasons are of no use.
    I am considering buying a moped (cheap) or electric foldable bicycle(very expensive). Niether are better for the environment considering the 50 miles a year I might travel.
    But a moped would save me £20 a day in parking or a bicycle would save me £20 + Maybe tube 2xtube journeys Z1-Z1

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  29. Producing the chart of percentages was interesting. I was aware of the Travelcard Agreement yet did not research the matter myself. This oh so reminds me of what the LT&S management were doing at Upminster Station in1996, leading to the Enterprise Rail bid for the line being derailed.

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  30. Well that’s put me off bringing the family to visit London for day trips etc.

    As a railway its also put me off visiting London too

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