What to do with the £2 fare.

Thursday 15th August 2024

A decision on the future of the UK Government’s £2 fare cap scheme on bus routes in England needs to be taken in the next few weeks.

When it ends in December the scheme will have been in place for two years, having being introduced in January 2023. That’s eight times longer than originally envisaged. Introduced as a three month initiative to gain the Government of the day some brownie points for easing the cost of living crisis it was promoted using the “help for households” catchphrase of the time.

The scheme has been voluntary and some respected independent operators from the SME sector have steadfastly refused to take part – Delaine and Lynx come to mind – believing their fares already give good value and not wanting to be in hock to Government for more financial support and all the associated cash flow, bureaucracy and administration issues that go with it. They also understandably had concerns about what happens when the scheme ends.

Others have enthusiastically embraced the concept with high profile advertising and reports of significant increases in passenger numbers particularly long distance journeys on inter-urban and rural routes. Famously, passengers on Transdev’s Yorkshire Coastliner route from Leeds to Scarborough have seen reductions from £15 to £2 for their single journey fare.

Metro Mayors in three of the Combined Authorities Greater Manchester, Merseyside and West Yorkshire had already introduced their own locally funded £2 fare caps so presumably will keep them going when the national scheme ends.

Earlier this year the Confederation of Passenger Transport (CPT) commissioned KPMG to report on options for the scheme’s future and unsurprisingly it concluded there were three avenues open to Government. Keep the scheme going as now; move away from it on a gradual basis; or thirdly end it suddenly.

You can see why consultants are so sought after!

To be fair, the full report is 45 pages and discusses a range of alternatives and issues including the advantages and disadvantages of general universal policies such as fare caps against targeted policies such as free travel for certain specified groups (eg young people) or tax benefits aimed at employees. It also reports on customer research carried out by Potloc Inc last November involving 1,549 bus users, with 900 in England and 300 in each of Wales and Scotland.

This showed high awareness of the £2 fare cap with 87% of frequent users and 70% of infrequent users aware of the scheme with 25% gaining knowledge through social media/internet and 42% finding out on the bus; half when paying or half seeing posters.

The great thing about the £2 cap has been its simplicity of understanding and consequential reassurance to passengers of how much the price of travel is, and the ease of marketing the proposition and raising awareness.

The great downside is the longer it’s gone on the more pain there’ll be to transition away from it. The original three months was never going to be enough time, especially in the depths of winter (January to March 2023), but two years is bordering on the maximum before action needs to be taken else income for bus companies (or the subsidising authority) will increasingly fall out of step with cost increases.

A second downside has been it hasn’t done much for commuters and regular travellers who were already taking advantage of discounted day, weekly or longer duration tickets.

So, where do we go from here? Before I make the assumption the Government will, as a minimum, act to amend the scheme from January 2025, rather than retain it unchanged, I want to add a rider that this new Government has a golden opportunity so early on in its five year life to also act to end the ‘populist’ policy of freezing duty on fuel, first introduced in 2011.

I therefore expect Chancellor Reeves in her first budget on 30th October to announce (a) the immediate overnight end to the freeze on fuel duty with a minimum 5p per litre increase from 1st November and (b) a gradual change to the £2 fare cap from January 2025 as follows.

(If the fuel duty freeze continues then so must the £2 fare cap – else it’ll be rightly regarded as a “war on the bus passenger”.)

Here’s my proposal.

From January 2025 the single fare cap will be replaced with a new Government funded daily cap of £5 with the same voluntary involvement by operators as now. This cap will increase from 1st July 2025 to £6 and from 1st January 2026 to £7 with the scheme terminating on 30th June 2026.

The advantage of this approach is it retains a simple concept for ease of understanding and awareness raising and encourages more journeys to be made when the costs of single journeys appear to be ‘free’ when taken within a daily cap. It also transitions gradually, giving passengers another full summer season in 2025 of a bargain travel opportunity but returns to reality the following year.

And please, no more state funded schemes for young adults as an alternative option. Bus companies should already be enticing those up to age 19 and students with commercially based schemes. It shouldn’t need Government intervention.

Roger French

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Comments on today’s blog are welcome but please keep them relevant to the blog topic, avoid personal insults and add your name (or an identifier). Thank you.

115 thoughts on “What to do with the £2 fare.”

    1. expand the £2 fare to trains 🙂

      but don’t tax petrol even more than it is now – people should want to use buses, not be forced to

      Aside: for me Google maps (directions) is as important as the £2 fare.

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  2. The £2 fare has done little to improve passenger numbers a simple zonal system might be better with 3 or 4 far zones. It would cost less and may give some money to give much needed improvements to services

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  3. As a driver I have definitely noticed an increase in the amount of passengers travelling since it’s launch, most of the travelling public seam aware of the cap but still show confusion when they’re told I can’t issue a return because that fair doesn’t exist on my machine as it’s more the then 2 singles. I have my concerns about how this scheme will end, I fear that come 2nd January (for the company I work for) the amount of abuse drivers are going to receive from the public when full fares return is going to have some backlash. There definitely needs to be a gradual transition period before the scheme ends like the original plan to increase the cap to £2.50, otherwise Im going to go back to hearing phrases like “3rd world travel for 1st class money”.

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  4. Perhaps a reminder that bus operators receive Bus Services Operators Grant (BSOG), that in part, but in only in part, refunds some of the fuel duty that bus operators pay. It’s been frozen for a long time and has not been increased in the past when fuel duty has been increased, so the 5p increase in fuel duty would be an increase in costs for all buses that are not electric. And there is no chance of the BSOG rate being increased as the treasury hates the idea of BSOG anyway.

    And a £5 daily cap? I don’t see why the day tripper should be subsidised. In CPT’s report( which I agree states the blindingly obvious for options) what’s missing are some statistics showing that the number of passengers have increased ( assuming of course they have?) because a lot of verbiage without any facts is not going to cut any ice with a Government in a financial hole and looking to save money. Is the bus industry and CPT so useless it cannot deploy facts to back its argument for some sort of continuation?

    As Roger rightly says because a weekly ticket in many towns and cities is around £20 the regular passenger who uses the bus to and from work has hardly benefited from the £2 cap.

    Whilst not so simple or eye catching , if the Government does want to ‘Help Households’ then all weeklies below £25 should be reduced to £12, with a £13 reduction for tickets priced above that, with pro rata reductions for 4 weeklies, and possibly 3 monthlies.

    Government subsidy should be targeted at the regular passenger.

    And I completely agree with no youth fares, part of the deal should be an increase in youth fares to 19 by participating operators if that’s not part of their fare structure.

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    1. Whether the £2 fare cap continues under the new Labour administration is somewhat debatable given the sudden axing of the Winter Fuel Allowance which wasn’t in thier manifesto. Labour do have form on this. The newly elected Labour Mayor for the West Midlands Combined Authority immediately raised bus fares by 20% despite pledging to lower fares in his campaign.

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      1. The Labour manifesto/election campaign only stated that they’d not increase Income Tax, NI or VAT. They steadfastly refused to be drawn on anything else.

        Given the mess of the public finances under the Tories (debt as % of GDP was 64% when they took over and was 82% ten years later i.e. pre Covid and 97% now), it’s not surprising that certain tough decisions have to be made.

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        1. Absolute rubbish & DONT preach politics with me mate your playing with the big boys here as the newly elected Deputy Leader Politics for Brum Tories. The new Labour administration has been given a legacy of Government borrowing costs that have dropped to their lowest for eight months . Also I didn’t say Labour pledged to keep Winter Fuel Payment I was using it as an analgy to Labour dropping successful Conservative policies avaliable to all such as £2 Bus Fare Capp. Incidentally whilst out campgaining for the Conservatives in the General Election myself woth the erstwhile West Midlands Mayor we came across Angela Rayner; Labour Deputy Leader in Dudley whilst we were working for Shaun Bailey; the candidate for Tipton; Rayner was with her close friend the successful Labour Candidate & I asked her directly what was Labour policy on Universal Benefits such as Winter Fuel Payment & if they would keep them? MS Rayners response was ” Yeah of course, were Labour – we care ” funny enough.

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          1. I’m not your mate, and don’t take such a high handed tone.

            I have clearly stated FACTS – inescapable, indisputable FACTS.

            You said “the sudden axing of the Winter Fuel Allowance which wasn’t in thier manifesto” – your spelling error, and one of many that littered your response. Correct – they didn’t mention it (WFA) at all. They only committed on the three taxes that I cited.

            So not only were you supporting Andy Street, the defeated Tory mayor, you supported Shaun Bailey. The same Shaun Bailey who supported Liz Truss in her elevation to PM for 49 days. Shaun Bailey who was also soundly beaten in the 2024 General Election.

            As a closing remark, you don’t need to say that you’re a “big boy” or any of the usual schtick that you come out with. It’s a bit like being tall… If you are, it’s evident for all to see. I won’t bother responding to the next foam flecked, poorly written and grammatically substandard arrogant hectoring from you.

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            1. It’s always sad when individuals have to resort to personal abuse when they are clearly wrong on an issue & consequently totally lost any argument they have in this instance & hide behind ANONYMITY which is just so “Cowardly” I suggest you read a post more clearly in future before making bold statements & avoid making outright political remarks on Rogers excellent blog which is for BUSES & buses related matters.

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            1. The Single Bus Fare is £2.90 in the West Midlands County of which 90p is subsided by HM Government until 31st December 2024.

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  5. The problem with a capped daily fare is alright for those that take multiple journeys. Someone who travels once a day currently paying £2.00 suddenly finds the fare goes to £4.50 could be a passenger lost.

    NT

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      1. Their refusal to take part is completely understandable. I know there are others, but both Delaine and Lynx have strong identities, outstanding customer service and a strong customer loyalty. This has got to be a factor in their success. Let’s face it, you can’t get much more established than Delaine!

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    2. Go to bustimes.org and enter each name into the search box, and all will be revealed.

      Both are well-known names, Delaine in particular has a history stretching back well over a century.

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    3. Lynx are based in Kings Lynn. Delaine are based in Bourne, Lincolnshire and operate to Peterborough and Stamford.

      I like the £2 fare as a passenger and hope that a way to keep it is found that works for operators as well as passengers. Diverting some of any fuel duty increase should do it.

      Gareth Cheeseman

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    4. I got caught out travelling by Delaine. Driver politely told me they didn’t do the £2 fare when I asked for single to Bourne.

      My immediate reaction was to ask for a day ticket as it was likely to be value for money after three trips.

      I only to realised when I sat down I’d been sold a ticket for a day’s travel between Peterborough and Bourne only!

      Im sure I’ll go to Bourne again when I get my OAP pass. A true flexible travel product!

      John Nicholas

      Liked by 2 people

      1. | I’d been sold a ticket for a day’s travel between Peterborough and
        | Bourne only!

        Delaine don’t offer a one-route-only day ticket. Their £5.80 day ticket is valid on all routes.

        They also offer a through single ticket at £3.80 which allows a change between routes at either Market Deeping or Bourne although it doesn’t seem well advertised.

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        1. With respect Bourne do issue point to point day tickets.

          https://www.delainebuses.com/onboardtickets.html

          I can’t tell the current price of this point to point day ticket even looking at their website, let alone at the bus stop.

          Compare this to a car driver who drives up to a filling station, the price per litre is clearly stated on the sign and they can go on any road without having to worry whether their fuel is valid at that time of day or their car doesn’t operate on Sundays!

          John Nicholas

          Liked by 1 person

          1. You’re right and I’m happy to admit that I was wrong!

            Whenever I have travelled on Delaine I’ve always just asked for a day ticket and been sold a Network-wide day ticket without comment, so I honestly thought that was all they issued.

            I had a look on the MyTrip app, which Delaine use along with a lot of other independents, and it seems they have a whole host of different day tickets at various prices.

            I live and learn!

            Liked by 1 person

    5. for a 4.50 cap indeed that is a cap operators can have lower single or return fares if they wish. Has there been misuse of scheme with longer journeys booked on tickets than asked for to increase subsidy payout?

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  7. How will the daily cap work when you use multiple operators (ie using stagecoach from A to B, for a GoAhead group bus from B to C & finally a First group bus from C to D, each with their own systems.

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  10. From my observations, it’s clearly working. I did three trips yesterday to and from a hospital appointment with a ‘filler’ for fun – £6-00. Nice and easy. Leave as is. Would have been four but my bus home up the hill was cancelled (vehicle breakdown). RC

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  11. The simplicity is an important as the fare itself, I’d suggest. An increase to £2.50 single would be best, perhaps allowing a change within an hour, would realistically achieve the same thing.

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  12. Even with a stepped transition, if fares do go back up to their previous commercial level (plus a few years of inflation) it will be damaging for passenger levels on some routes. When people are used to paying £4 return on Coastliner, how many people will be prepared to pay £18 or £20 or whatever the fares come back at, when it costs less than half of that to drive?

    One of the biggest problems is inconsistency between operators – similar journeys on one company can cost getting on for double what they would be on another. Around here, Arriva are generally good value, but Transdev and Go-Ahead are much more expensive.

    I would like to see long-term measures to keep fares affordable, but proportionate. Whether that is through increased BSOG or some other measure, I don’t know, but if we’re serious about trying to persuade people to reduce their car use then we need to keep fares on many routes lower than they used to be.

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  13. I’m surprised no-one has yet mentioned one perhaps obvious option – keep the scheme as is and explicitly fund it from an increase in fuel duty (and exclude bus operators from fuel duty, as airlines already are?). There should be enough new income from the fuel duty increase to fund the bus fare cap scheme entirely as well as help towards the government’s financial hole, and this would send a very powerful message indeed that modal shift from car to bus is needed.

    stephen H

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    1. Governments of all colours appear to loathe hypothecated taxes, so this has next to no chance, even if promises of net zero require exactly this sort of action.

      Paul

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  14. You mention Coastliner but one knock on effect is people in small townsmen route such as Tadcaster and Malton with no other bus service have not been able to get onto buses as they are full from Leeds or Scarborough and there have been many unanswered complaints made to Transdev who run the service

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  15. I am intrigued by KMPG carrying out 300 surveys in Scotland and Wales where the £2 cap does not apply. Was this carried out to determine whether people in these two countries were aware of the scheme in England, or if they considered bus fares in their countries were value for money and if not, would they support the introduction of a similar scheme?

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  16. For me, the simplicity of the £2 fare has been its best feature as previously it was, often high, single fares, or much better value day tickets but which on many operators suffered from a multiplicity of confusing zones. And even asking for the all zones ticket sometimes resulted in being given one with less availability than required. Plus the restrictions of day tickets restricted to a single operator. So a universal daily cap increasing slightly each year would be a good idea if it could be made to work practically.

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  17. It shouldn’t need government based schemes, commercially based is best. Has Roger paid the full fare on a metrobus route? £5.80 for a single journey from Reigate Hill to Sutton Hospital – extortionate! A 4 stops journey (5 mins) on metrobus 409 from Upper Warlingham to Kenley Aerodrome £2.50 also super expensive. These being the pre fare cap prices. This is what deregulated fares are. I take the bus far more with the £2 fare cap, but back to commercial fares, no way ill find other means because at those fares i feel like im getting ripped off. Many European countries have zonal bus fares which are cheaper and simpler -even they offer day tickets and student discounted tickets and sunsequently far higher bus usage. Why can’t we have that? Oh wait that would be state intervention and we couldnt possibly have that. Lets rip off customers instead and have half empty buses running around as the fares are too high – how good is that for the environment?

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  18. I think you’re wide of the mark, this time, Roger.

    The cheap jibe at consultants is unworthy of you.

    In my experience publicity and promotion of the £2 fare cap has been woeful. The report notes that the majority of people became aware of when buying a ticket on the bus!

    Several commentators have made the point that the advantage of the £2 cap is in it’s simplicity. Simplicity is something which needs to retained.

    Daily fare caps in a multi-operator network require significant back-office systems, which generally aren’t in place yet. How long has Project Coral been promising this?

    I think that reduced fares schemes targeting young people (16+) are appropriate. I have no faith that bus operators, left to their own devices would introduce them as a commercial initiative. They have shown little inclination to do so previously. However, this needs to be a country-wide solution, as an extension to the ENCTS so that terms and conditions are standardised.

    I have always maintained that the £2 fare cap on long distance routes was not what the scheme was intended for and there should have been some attempts to sectionalise the fare.

    I think the solution lies in a zonal approach, although this will require each of the Enhanced Partnerships to work to agree the definition of each zone.

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  19. Being the cynic that I am, I believe the cap was introduced to stop the major operators hiking fares in 2023 in response to the increasing inflation at that time. This was more a prices and incomes policy than one for encouraging bus travel. The old government dithered on what to do and has passed the problem on. This government will just end the scheme without replacement. Any government that wants serious model shift away from cars needs to make public transport free and paid for by taxes like the NHS, no other way will achieve the desired result, unfortunately pigs will fly before this happens!

    Richard Warwick

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  20. One of the big barriers to encouraging passengers to travel is a complex fares structure . . . surveys of non-passengers have made this point time and again. The £2 fare cap removed that reason at a stroke . . . and in general passenger numbers have risen. Maybe not to pre-Covid levels, but risen nonetheless. It does rather show that a short trial is not enough, but (now) over 18 months, it can be seen to have worked.

    Yes, there are the outliers like Leeds to Whitby, but they are rare . . . seeing your fare capped at £2 when it should be £5-£6 is by far the norm.

    I’ve always thought that the £2 cap was rather a blunt instrument, and that setting graduated fares at (say) half of the norm, or (possibly) 2/3rds of the norm, would have been better, and more sustainable in the long term. If you explain that fares depend on the distance travelled, then most people will understand that. Fare “zones” are rather blunt, unless specific to an urban area . . . trying to have zones in a rural area will simply become too complicated.

    Much better to revise fare stages to be every mile, instead of every half-mile, as has been the case for probably nearly 100 years now !! This will reduce the complexity of fare charts, thereby making fares easier to understand and to publicise.

    We actually have a once in a lifetime opportunity to thoroughly revise fares structures to be fit for the future.

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  21. The simplicity of the £2 fare is the key point. Most people know that if they catch the bus it will be £2.

    This compares with the previous situation where most of the commercial bus operators were incapable of publicising their fares apart from the day/week/month fares. So potential new passengers were deterred from travelling because they had no idea what it would cost. I think day tickets are slightly misleading as they imply multiple journeys on a day out, and most people are trying to find out the cost of a single or return.

    I like the idea suggested above to scrap the fuel duty cap and use the increase to fund the £2 fare cap. Now THAT would be consistent with the green agenda, and link in with the expansion of house building, which should only take place adjacent to bus routes (existing or new).

    Peter Brown

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    1. Can’t log on apart from doing a reply but I don’t see how the Government can keep the £2 fare given their statements on the level of unfunded schemes inherited.

      So my Idea is increase to £2.50 plus users of the pensioner’s pass pay 50p but able to use at anytime.

      It does seem in some areas at least, passenger numbers are up which given this Government’s green aspirations, needs to be encouraged so thT public transport is increasingly used.

      Tony Burns

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  22. Anecdotally buses seem distinctly busier since the £2 fare was introduced. But are no proper statistics available to demonstrate what the impact has actually been on passenger numbers? Reliable evidence would help in making informed choices about future policy.

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  23. I think there’s very little doubt the £2 fare cap has assisted in patronage recovery. It’s the relative contribution that’s the moot point.

    There are unintended consequences to the £2 fare cap, many being positive. As others have mentioned, it has brought some very expensive local fares back to something approaching acceptability. For the driver, there’s no need to go through the list of destinations on the ticket machine to find an obscure destination – just issue a £2 ticket! (of course, in my experience the ticket issued often bears no relationship to where I am actually travelling to!). £2 also saves time because it can be paid with one coin and there’s more chance the fare is to hand rather than a surprise counting of coins when the passenger gets confronted with a fare they are not familiar with.

    I have also observed some students paying the two-pound adult fare where previously they may have asked for a child concession on the higher-priced ticket.

    It seems a shame that the previous Government didn’t proceed with the £2.50 fare cap – the cost to the treasury would have been reduced overnight and would have looked better once the inevitable scrutiny of ‘the books’ by the current administration has occurred.

    Dan Tancock

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  25. The problem with raising fuel duty is that it penalises people who live in rural areas, where many journeys cannot be made except by car (and may be quite lengthy).

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    1. Many affluent people seem quite happy to live in the countryside and travel everywhere by SUV. They can afford the extra fuel duty, which can be used to fund expanded rural bus services for the not so well off.

      The later are in for a shock x years down the line when used car prices rise as the supply of the increasingly aged IC cars decreases, leaving only expensive EVs available. I don’t think replacing IC cars one for one with EVs is desirable on many counts. Government and individuals need to think about how to adapt to this future.

      Many car journeys are very short, and could easily be covered on foot, by bicycle, ebike, and bus. Planners should be considering how to encourage these alternatives, including provision of proper infrastructure to make all towns walkable, bike-able, and bus-able. A study visit to the Netherlands will reveal most small towns that have the required infrastructure and planning in place, and are far nicer places to live than car dependent UK alternatives.

      Peter Brown

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      1. Conversely many rural people are not affluent and need their cars to get to work, go shopping, medical appointments etc. DRT schemes should work for this but, as Roger has copiously told us, they don’t. Where my mother used to live in Norfolk many bus services were either timed to fit in with High Schools or were “round the villages to the nearest large town in the morning, back about 90 minutes later” and not every day at that. Yes she lived about 1.5 miles from a main road that enjoys a good service – but that’s no use if you can’t get to it. I wonder, too, if population density in rural parts of the Netherlands are similar to those in Britain?

        I absolutely agree that we need attractive and prosperous small towns. However planning laws in Britain which seem to have prioritised motorists driving out-of-town malls, and an economic model which says that it’s fine for people to drive 50+ miles to work each day don’t help – but how does one roll back on these?

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      2. Have you ever lived in a rural area? Cycling and walking is simply not viable, The distances No foot paths no street lighting and narrow twisting single track roads

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        1. I live in Wiltshire. And yes you’re right, cycling and walking aren’t currently viable, however that’s not set in stone. The Netherlands has extensive rural cycle paths connecting towns and villages. Yes it’s flat there, which is where ebikes come in here.

          My main point is that we can dismiss the need for change and stick with car dependency…….until the supply of affordable IC cars drys up. Then what? Can lower income rural people afford a used EV, have space for a home charger or be totally reliant on public chargers and building in charge time into their routine?

          I for one don’t envisage buying an EV due to cost, and my off street parking being at the end of my garden, making installation of a home charger expensive,especially as I’ve recently retired.

          Fortunately I live on the edge of a small market town. Everything I need for day to day living is within 15 to 25 minutes by bike or on foot, with buses available too. The “15 minute city” if you like.

          So after much thought I’ve purchased a folding e-cargo bike for grocery shopping (cheaper than a car and it will keep me active too) and , and I will try and prolong the life of my car by saving it for less frequent longer trips that I cant do by bus.

          Peter Brown

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  26. A simple zonal system would be more sensible and less costly

    Say :- 0 to 3 miles £2, 3 to 6 miles £3 over 6 miles £4

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  27. That’s a coarse graduated system, not a zonal system.

    Zones imply a scheme based on areas … so any journey within a “zone” is a flat fare.

    I agree that such a scale is both sensible and understandable.

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  28. In France many rural (fairly long distance) bus routes have a flat fare of €2, and some French regions seem to treat €1 and €2 as reasonable fares for both bus and rail services they fund.

    Others don’t, which leads to the situation where a journey which would cost you €2 in one region will cost you €20 in another…

    Germany has of course gone for the €49 monthly ticket which France decided it couldn’t afford.
    A £49 monthly bus and PTE-area-rail ticket would probably be good publicity but whether it would benefit people outside the PTE areas is another thing. The UK system where InterCity rail isn’t separated from local rail precludes a German D-ticket pass with nationwide validity unless there was a further massive increase in funding for the rail network – which would leads to screams of outrage.

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  29. Totally agree with a subsidised daily multi-operator cap. Leicester has 90% of employment outside the City Centre, together with a university, two hospitals and a college. However, all routes (bar one) terminate in the City Centre. Most congestion is caused at interchanges of radials at each of its three ring roads – due to cross city traffic. Buses are virtually empty outbound in the morning peak, demonstrating very little interchange to these non-central sites and a completely wasted resource. Most non-central sites have cheap/free parking. Therefore day bus fares to get to this massive market have to be low, particularly as interchange is required. Andy

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  30. My alternative scheme: monthly regional and national bus ticket for a reasonable price (would need some thinking as to how to address franchised cities like London and Manchester).

    Conceptually similar to Deutschland Ticket, but without the trains; maybe £15 pm (with subsidies for young/very poor/carers/unemployed etc.) Low enough to breakeven on a few journeys but high enough to capture a reasonable revenue stream. Ticket could be implemented as a contactless payment card with limited usability (similar to the way Citymapper pass was implemented in London, in reality a locked down mastercard debit card which settled to TfL as normal but was charged differently to the cardholder), i.e. works on transport but not in the shops. Regional cards could be set up to work nationally but rebill the “out of zone/beyond subscription” journeys to a linked credit or debit card, up to a certain amount per day/month (again like Citymapper). So you always use the card first, and can get alerted if you do enough travel to make it worth adding a new region or national element to the card.

    This sort of monthly ticket would favour commuters and other regular users, driving up ridership while maximising revenue from tourists and less frequent bus users. Simple for operators as well, all the complicated revenue offsetting happens centrally.

    MilesT

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  31. Also, if the MO discounted daily cap is below commercial single operator day ticket prices, this is a very neat way of getting a simple ‘franchise-like’ fare structure with no premium for movement between operators.

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  32. There is n o real indication to show the £2 fare has boosted passenger numbers,. They appear to have recovered close to pre covid numbers but that’s about all. I tried to find how much the £2 fare was costing but have not found that data at present

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  34. How about this?

    (1) Quantify how much the economy gains by people using the bus into town centres, which might show the subsidy for the two-pound scheme is amazing value given money spent by passengers upon arrival. So keep the scheme for 2025 to allow decent such statistics to be derived.

    (2) In addition, have a daily fare cap, as suggested by Roger. My vote, over here in Oxfordshire, we now have an all-county ticket called “MyBus Oxfordshire”. It’s like having a London travelcard, but for where I live. It’s great – make this national?

    (3) Publicity, publicity and more publicity for the network we have. Why is it that I can get complete information on what can sometimes be complex train journeys (e.g. from National Rail website). Yet for buses to explore new areas, I always end up hacking my way around “BusTimes.org” to plan a journey and again in real-time to track so I really know I am standing at the correct bus stop. “BusTimes.org” is a fantastic resource, but would the owners be willing to receive a grant maybe, to get it up to the level of usability of the national rail website and that appeals to the broad travelling public? This can be done – again, in my region, the Oxford Bus Company put all other operators on their app – which is incredibly thoughtful and I am sure actually brings more passengers to their own services by doing this. Good publicity combined with an ongoing simple “two-pound scheme” will generate many more passengers.

    One other small point. Here, we have a “tap on, tap off” system, which is very efficient. Except if someone cannot find their bank card to tap off and blocks the doorway with others queuing back up the stairs. That problem went away with the two-pound cap because the odds are, that is the fare you are paying. So, basically, people tap in but don’t bother tapping out. All helps keep things running on time….

    CH, Oxford

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    1. | in Oxfordshire, we now have an all-county ticket called “MyBus Oxfordshire”.
      | It’s great – make this national?

      If by national you mean make one ticket valid nationally, then, as long as it’s funded, why not?

      If you mean make a ticket available within each county, then no, probably not.
      Why? Because county boundaries don’t necessarily bear any relation to the journeys people make, especially in these days of unitary authorities covering only parts of the ceremonial (historic) counties.

      Would a Dorset pass be valid in Bournemouth, or a Hampshire one in Southampton or Portsmouth, for example? If not then it might not be of much use.

      Like

      1. I did indeed mean the former. So one ticket, valid everywhere.

        They could still retain local names, maybe (if that helps with local accounting), but a “MyBus Oxfordshire” would be valid in Wiltshire, for instance. CH, Oxford.

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  35. £2 fare is a smokescreen. Fares aren’t really the problem here, it’s the sheer inconvenience of bus travel and lazy bordering incompetent behaviours of commercial teams in the industry (hello go north east) that make the bus such an awful choice

    You can make a bus free but if it’s unreliable, dirty and either takes far too long to get where you want to be or requires multiple changes, unless it’s their only option, folk won’t bus it.

    From experience in the North East region, Go North East became so dire that even the £2 fare cap (which was a nice change from their ludicrously expensive monopoly fares) hasn’t enticed people onto their growing and increasingly unreliable fleet of ex london cast offs

    now if only BSIP was put to good use

    Andreos.

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  36. What is likely to be a issue with any of the suggestions made is how much should the operator be reimbursed for the cap, whatever it is? The current system seems to work on the basis of a calculation done by accountants and an offer being made, but the operator has no idea how that sum has been calculated. Then it’s take it or leave it. Clearly most have taken it. But as operators know the concessionary fare calculations over the years have basically under reimbursed, leading to fare increases for other passengers to compensate.

    Incidentally both Lynx and Delaine still seem to be prospering with normal fares. Perhaps passengers prefer service quality to cheaper fares.

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    1. | Perhaps passengers prefer service quality to cheaper fares.

      Or perhaps they have no other choice.

      If you want to go from Bourne to Peterborough or Hunstanton to Kings Lynn, the choice is between the car or the incumbent bus operator; there’s no option of “Pay £2 with Rattlebus or pay £4 on Qualitybus”, so there’s no way to measure whether service quality pulls in more passengers in the area than cheaper fares would.

      Personally I doubt either makes much difference: people in rural areas who are become wedded to their cars aren’t going to trog down to a bus stop just because there’s a cheap fare or because the bus industry has given out a back-slapping award.

      Like

  37. What little data I can find tends to indicate the £2 fare has not lead to passenger growth, It may have sped up the recovery in passenger numbers from Covid though

    Is it good value for taxpayers money? Probably mot as passenger numbers have not increased

    If he figure I found was correct it is costing about £250M a year

    That might be better spent in improving services particularly increasing operating hours and frequencies

    The risk now is removing the £2 might reduce passenger numbers

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  38. @CH traveline.info, moovit both do a decent job of bus and multimodal route planning across the UK. Neither is sufficiently well publicised.

    Yes if I want a timetable for a route I already know bustimes.org is quicker.

    MilesT

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  39. I have to disagree with the above recommendation for Moovit, which I have never found useful.

    Try to get a route from Bournemouth Square to Salisbury: Moovit doesn’t recognise the starting point, and advises to leave from “Bournemouth Station, Lansdowne”.

    Or try to find Peterborough and Moovit is stumped. Yes it knows Queensgate Bus Station (but a stranger might not) though it doesn’t seem to know how to get from there to March or Whittlesey.

    And next to “Directions” is “Lines” – which is a London Underground diagram rather than anything relevant to either end of the requested journey.

    Ian McNeil

    Like

  41. Suppose some sort of “all-UK” capped daily bus ticket emerged. What are the chances of having a few urban rail networks thrown in, too? Or would that be too difficult to arrange (paper bus tickets at station barriers might not mix well?). CH, Oxford

    Like

    1. It does seem a little daft that often both rail and the bus are both subsidized and competing with each other

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  42. I missed the latest spat with Richard Jones, quote ‘The new Labour Mayor raised fares by 20%’ Single fares in the West Midlands are capped at £2, and there has been a small increase in some longer period tickets. But the Mayor does not control fares (yet), so it would have been the bus operators who would have put up the fares. So where does 20% come from? And he says he is an accountant.

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    1. In July last year, all operator-only tickets were removed and replaced with TfWM’s nBus products. It was TfWM who increased nBus ticket prices in June this year, therefore as TfWM is part of the WMCA – which the Mayor is chair of – they already do have control over fares. But to be fair this was done in consultation with bus operators who are part of the West Midlands Bus Alliance, the current partnership agreement that is in place.

      As far as I am aware, this increase would have happened regardless of whoever became Mayor. The actual increase is closer to 6%, rather than 20% though.

      Single fares increased from £2.70 to £2.90 – though these remain capped at £2 until the end of this year – while an nBus multi-operator day ticket increased from £4.50 to £4.80.

      Stu (West Midlands Bus Users)

      Like

      1. Just to note Stu Andy Street CBE had pledged during the Mayoral Election Campaign to freeze bus fares using funding from Devolution Budget from H M GOVERNMENT.

        Like

    2. The Standard Single Fare on bus services in West Midlands County on May 4th was £2.40 . It is now £2.90 a rise of 20%. . I may not be the best accountant in the world but can spot a 20% rise. Fares are capped & subsided by H M GOVERNMENT until 31/12/24 at £2

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  43. The Mayor may be chair of WMCA, but he still does not control fares. As part of the Enhanced Partnership there are various agreements on fares, including a sum to keep fares lower. The operators are still commercial operations and, subject to the agreements in place with TfWM , can alter fares if they wish. TfWM cannot order them to increase or reduce fares, but it can and has entered into agreements on fares.

    in Manchester under franchising it’s completely different, the Mayor controls fares.

    Andy Street may have pledged not in increase fares, but he was not elected. As it seems the national £2 fare scheme is under threat in 2025 it will be interesting to see what the Mayors who are all going for franchising will do. Again Manchester has its own scheme and is not affected, but WM is.

    Like

    1. In fact Andy Street CBE did have ultimate control of fares as he assumed the powers of the OfTC in March 2023 as well as powers to control timetables & fares in his final Devo Deal from Whitehall which allowed us to bring in nBus in lieu of NXWM Daysavers & Diamond Value Tickets .

      Like

  44. I wasn’t going to but I though I’d best respond to Richard’s post yesterday and clarify some of the issues:

    “It’s always sad when individuals have to resort to personal abuse when they are clearly wrong on an issue & consequently totally lost any argument they have in this instance & hide behind ANONYMITY which is just so “Cowardly” I suggest you read a post more clearly in future before making bold statements & avoid making outright political remarks on Rogers excellent blog which is for BUSES & buses related matters.”

    The initial post from Richard stated “Whether the £2 fare cap continues under the new Labour administration is somewhat debatable given the sudden axing of the Winter Fuel Allowance which wasn’t in thier (sic) manifesto. Labour do have form on this.” – that sounds like Richard was making an outright political remark. The WFA has nothing to do with buses.

    My response was to provide balance on this point in that only certain tax policy areas were mentioned in the manifesto. Mr Jones responded with the line “Absolute rubbish & DONT preach politics with me mate your playing with the big boys here as the newly elected Deputy Leader Politics for Brum Tories. ” Again, highly provactive. and hardly conducive to reasoned discussion.

    Finally, the statement that anyone posting either anonymously (or with a pseudonym) is somehow cowardly. Not at all. Mr Jones is a self employed person running his own small business. He is free to express himself as he wishes, having left the constraints of the corporate world many years ago. However, some of us ARE constrained by the rules and views of our lords and masters. Venturing an opinion on Roger’s excellent blog isn’t worth losing a well paid position for.

    Mr Jones may wish to believe that someone responding in kind to statements like “Absolute Rubbish” is somehow losing the argument. Far from it – the facts that were posted are demonstrably true and I stand by them. Justifying the level of national debt that ballooned between 2010 and 2020 by saying “The new Labour administration has been given a legacy of Government borrowing costs that have dropped to their lowest for eight months” rings pretty hollow and certainly will only marginally help in managing a parlous financial position. And remember, the Conservative manifesto had up to £20bn of unidentified spending cuts.

    Whatever your political allegiances, there were difficult spending decisions ahead.

    Yours faithfully, an anonymous senior commercial manager.

    Like

    1. To put the record straight I am NOT a Self Employed person running his own small business but am an employee of a Company & have the same responsibilities as every employee I just chose not to act as a coward as others do when commenting & hide behind anonimnity and am happy to post with my full name.

      As for buses & politics it is impossible to separate the two in Brum & I am happy to share my political allegencies in my home City where buses are controlled by an elected Mayor who is aligned to a political party.

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      1. are you an employee and director of this business though? And so have more freedom to speak than an employee of one of the big bus operators….

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        1. I repeat I am an employee of a Limited Company & subject to the standard rules of any employee . What this has to do with anything is anyones guess.

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          1. Richard – you are employed by a limited company with two employees….a limited company that has “1 active person with significant control” – that person being YOU.

            So given that it’s your company, and thereby your rules, it is fair to suggest that you have considerably more freedom to venture your opinions than someone who is employed by a larger business.

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            1. What you are referring to is my Private Limited Company for my own personal work & not the large business I am actually employed by on a daily basis as an employee & subject to normal employe conditions. What this has to do with anything is anyones guess

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            2. Instead of questioning me I suggest you look in mirror & question why someone doesn’t have the guts to make comments in public and cowardly hides behind anonymity. To me that smacks of sheer hypcracy & is not worthy of continuing engagement. This matter is CLOSED until you have the guts to admit who you are.

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  45. I cannot imagine Andy Street fading through registration documents? If TfWM became the Licencing authority it still does not control fares, neither does any other Traffic Commissioner in the Country. Presumably the standard single fare of £2.90 is used as a shadow fare to calculate something, the passenger sees £2. What happens after 1.1.25 remains conjecture at present.

    What I still do not understand is how NXWM which pre-Covid had low fares, a rapidly modernising fleet, stable if not slightly increasing patronage and a general quality image, seems to have fallen into a financial black hole post Covid, whereas that has not happened anywhere else. And TfWM has provided massive financial support, yet there are reports of further commercial deregistrations in January.

    The problem does not appear to lie with TfWM but with NXWM’s management, or lack of it.Wether the Mayor is Labour or Conservative is irrelevant to that basic problem

    Like

    1. The deeper Devolution Deal of 2023 provided the greater powers over transport to WMCA & led to the end of NXWM Daysavers & Diamond Value Tickets in favour of Nbus Tickets which are controlled by TfWM. Mr Street provided support to the bus network to 31/12/24 from the powers in the Devo Deal & as he uses the bus & metro network daily unlike the current incumbent he DID actually take a personal interest in all bus service registrations & oversaw the changes on the 4 , 4H & 4M which saw both the end of unessary competition & the introduction of 1 ticket for all operators & no operator own tickets in West MidlandsCounty. He also comosionned a major report on the future of Brums Bus Network which was to presented after the Mayoral Elections in May that included all options including franchising for the future of bus network Post December 2024. Birmingham sadly misses this great innovator who bought so much to the City in his tenure & only lost by 1 vote in each ballot box on 4th May 2024.

      https://www.wmca.org.uk/news/wmca-ratifies-devolution-deal/#:~:text=Under%20the%20Deeper%20Devolution%20Deal,people%20living%20in%20the%20WMCA

      Like

      1. can you confirm how you know that the current incumbent mayor of the West Midlands doesn’t use the bus and tram network daily? I think that Andy Street did do a good job but democracy has spoken and any comments on the new mayor need to be based on fact. P.s. the nbus ticket was already available and wasn’t a new thing

        Like

        1. You do realise I was part of the negotiation & consultation team which led to the agreement which was only enacted after the powers from the last Devo Deal which gave us leverage with the operators & am still very active with TfWM & know the current Mayor’s activities from his diarist as well as direct contact with him. As an aside Centro has not existed since 2017 & is of no relevance to this discussion. He does not use the bus & metro as his predecessor did which I am sure he is happy to confirm however he did once attempt a journey on the 11 with Jess Phillips MP for a photo opportunity & Prees release 🤣 I will be making no further comments on this matter & suggest you direct any information you require on the Mayor of West Midlands Combined Authority to :

          https://governance.wmca.org.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=2555

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  46. Sorry wrong again. It took two years of negotiations for NXWM to agree (note agree) to give up their range of period tickets, and that was in exchange for a financial package that helped all operators but with NXWM having 90+ plus of the network they clearly benefited most. I’m sure that if those financial arrangements ended then NX could reinstate their ticket range. No one is denying that Andy Street achieved a lot for the West Midlands, but the voters spoke and there is a new Mayor. He will go for franchising, as I think Andy Street would have had to to justify baling out NX.

    NX only achieved its near monopoly with Travelcard, something the competition authorities should have sorted 30 years ago, but as been proved so often the regulatory bodies are clueless. Centro tried with various all operator cards but could not break the NX stranglehold. And now the West Midlands has ended up with a near monopoly operator in a financial mess.

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  47. Well if Mr Jones was part of the team he should have a much better understanding of who controls what then and not give TfWM and the Mayor powers they don’t have, nor make a completely inaccurate political point, even though that’s what politicians often do. So it’s agreed the Mayor has not increased fares by 20%, but by 6% and that’s the first increase since 2019?, which if my maths is correct is just over 1% a year.

    It’s nearly as bad as saying train drivers have just won a 15% rise, when it’s in reality 5% per annum over 3 years. And that really is a Tory untruth.

    Like

    1. The Standard Single Fare on bus services in West Midlands County on May 4th was £2.40 . It is now £2.90 a rise of 20%. . I may not be the best accountant in the world but can spot a 20% rise. Fares are capped & subsided by H M GOVERNMENT until 31/12/24 at £2

      Like

        1. The Standard Single Fare on bus services in West Midlands County on May 4th was £2.40 . It is now £2.90 a rise of 20%. . I may not be the best accountant in the world but can spot a 20% rise. Fares are capped & subsided by H M GOVERNMENT until 31/12/24 at £2

          Like

          1. that’s a yes then as no one is paying the standard single fare and no one has paid a 20% increase

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            1. Who do you think is paying the operators the extra 90p ? The government is funding the difference. The government is funded by tax payers such as you & I . There isn’t a magic money tree so therefore tax payers are funding the £2 capp and so consequently we are all funding the 20% fare increase from £2.40 to £2.90 out of our pockets in the taxes we contribute to The Treasury. .

              Like

    2. The deeper Devolution Deal of 2023 provided the greater powers over transport to WMCA & led to the end of NXWM Daysavers & Diamond Value Tickets in favour of Nbus Tickets which are controlled by TfWM. Mr Street provided support to the bus network to 31/12/24 from the powers in the Devo Deal & as he uses the bus & metro network daily unlike the current incumbent he DID actually take a personal interest in all bus service registrations & oversaw the changes on the 4 , 4H & 4M which saw both the end of unessary competition & the introduction of 1 ticket for all operators & no operator own tickets in West MidlandsCounty. He also comosionned a major report on the future of Brums Bus Network which was to presented after the Mayoral Elections in May that included all options including franchising for the future of bus network Post December 2024. Birmingham sadly misses this great innovator who bought so much to the City in his tenure & only lost by 1 vote in each ballot box on 4th May 2024.

      https://www.wmca.org.uk/news/wmca-ratifies-devolution-deal/#:~:text=Under%20the%20Deeper%20Devolution%20Deal,people%20living%20in%20the%20WMCA

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  48. Richard, repeating your 0845 post so you think you have the last word won’t work,and you are still wrong. Fares in the West Midlands are agreed as part of the current EP agreement which expires at the end of 2024. If you are such a knowledgeable accountant think of this. Would you give a clean sign off to the accounts of a business that has no control of its revenue, which is what you suggest? You would heavily qualify them to that effect. I know it’s difficult, but please think logically.

    Incidentally that’s why the current franchise bandwagon could you horribly wrong.(AKA the East Coast rail franchise x 2) You as the operator have fixed revenue ( as part of your bid) but costs rise. Every London operator is losing money, see the latest Stagecoach accounts and the sad case of Sullivans.

    Like

    1. The deeper Devolution Deal of 2023 provided the greater powers over transport to WMCA & led to the end of NXWM Daysavers & Diamond Value Tickets in favour of Nbus Tickets which are controlled by TfWM. Mr Street provided support to the bus network to 31/12/24 from the powers in the Devo Deal & as he uses the bus & metro network daily unlike the current incumbent he DID actually take a personal interest in all bus service registrations & oversaw the changes on the 4 , 4H & 4M which saw both the end of unessary competition & the introduction of 1 ticket for all operators & no operator own tickets in West MidlandsCounty. He also comosionned a major report on the future of Brums Bus Network which was to presented after the Mayoral Elections in May that included all options including franchising for the future of bus network Post December 2024. Birmingham sadly misses this great innovator who bought so much to the City in his tenure & only lost by 1 vote in each ballot box on 4th May 2024.

      https://www.wmca.org.uk/news/wmca-ratifies-devolution-deal/#:~:text=Under%20the%20Deeper%20Devolution%20Deal,people%20living%20in%20the%20WMCA

      Footnote :

      The above has been checked by a member of the erstwhile team of the Mayor of West Midlands Combined Authority this morning who agrees it is factually correct.

      Like

  49. Richards analysis of the events leading up to the introduction of single of operator tickets by TfWM I can confirm working with Andy at the WMCA at the time is basically factually correct DS.

    Liked by 1 person

  50. Just catching up with the latest posts on this. I have no knowledge of the whys and wherefores of the WMCA, but I will pick up on an earlier comment regarding anonymity.

    It is good that Richard Jones has the freedom to venture his views. That he feels that he can do this is HIS decision alone. Similarly, that he chooses to divulge a range of other information, such as his height, is again entirely HIS choice.

    Not everyone is as fortunate to have such freedom. My employer is brilliant. Some may have employers who would take a dim view of their employees putting forward any form of political view, irrespective of the hue. It may not lead to formal action but it’s a sure way of getting your card marked, and it wouldn’t be a conversation that I’d want to have in justifying anything.

    Anonymity is partly what allows this blog to function. Not as a means of providing cover to make abusive comments but simply the ability to share information or insights; I’m know that Roger provides quite a few morsels that have been given on such an anonymous basis. I myself prefer not to do so, and I know of friends/colleagues in major bus groups who also post on a similar basis.

    So to say “why someone doesn’t have the guts to make comments in public and cowardly hides behind anonymity. To me that smacks of sheer hypcracy (sic) & is not worthy of continuing engagement. This matter is CLOSED until you have the guts to admit who you are.” is really counter to the aims of this forum. We can’t have people being “outed” because one person demands it. I’m also at a loss to understand the hypocrisy aspect – no one posting anonymously is asking anyone else to provide personal information that they aren’t themselves providing?

    Yours faithfully, a still anonymous senior commercial manager.

    ps It is fair to use an identifier if only to avoid the confusion of knowing which anonymous poster is who.

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  51. Its a great pity then that WMCA staff don’t understand the agreement that TfWM have entered into with operators. And I work for an operator who runs in the West Midlands and have sight of the meeting minutes.

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    1. As a member of the previous administration I too have all the minutes from both the TDC ,& WMBA meetimgs at Summer Lane &.was actively involved with all the WMBA operators until the 4th of May 2024.

      I refer you to the final Deeper Devolution Deal & in particular the devolvment of transport & previously the transfer of powers of the OfTC to the WMCA.

      I Inow Richard can somewhat get a little carried away with the passion he has for buses as TfWM know all too well & I also know him personally, but I suggest you & your operator refer to this document which Richard has quite rightly based his comments on. DS

      https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/west-midlands-combined-authority-trailblazer-deeper-devolution-deal

      Like

    1. If there is any aspect of the Deeper Devolution Deal of the West Midlands Combined Authority you do not understand, may I in the first instance suggest you contact:

      Richard Parker

      Mayor of West Midlands Combined Authority

      16 Summer Lane

      Birmingham

      B19 3SD

      DS

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  53. So two people who claim to have an intimate knowledge of the WMCA Devolution agreement say that the West Midlands Combined Authority controls bus fares in the West Midlands, and provide a 71 page copy of said agreement. So I skim read it and I do find a section about Buses, but in that there is no mention of fares. But it’s 71 pages and it’s quite possible I have missed it. So I ask the authors to point out the relevent section, and am told to write to the Mayor!

    And if the authors are incapable of providing evidence then I will continue to assume that fares in the West Midlands are not controlled by the Mayor, and that the current agreement on fares between TfWM and the Operators will expire at the end of 2024, and no doubt there will be a new arrangement.

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  54. Yes EP Scheme Variation 003 is the current one , in the preamble it’s says it’s is an agreement between operators and ……………….

    Still nothing about TfWM controlling fares.

    Do you give up yet, Richard?

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    1. Exactly what don’t you understand about an agreement between the WMCA & the operators to use the Nbus Ticket to replace Operators own tickets following enhanced powers in the Devo Deals given to the Combined Authority?

      The WMCA used its newly devolved powers to successfully replace the multitude of tickets & passes with 1 single range of tickets.

      This was driven by the then Mayor to create within the EP the successful launch of 1 ticket all operators.

      Why you cannot understand that this was only achieved from the leverage of the Devolution Deal is beyond me.

      If you cannot understand the principles of this that is your affair.

      The legacy is the current Mayor has inherited from his predecessor the transfer of powers from the OfTC & the Enhanced Partnership improvements from the Devo Deal which has resulted in coordinated timetables & simplified fares negotiabled by Transport for West Midlands given its unprecdented powers it now holds compared to Centro.

      If you have nothing better to.do with your time than keep banging on about the Mayors powers that is up to you.

      As my former colleague suggested address this to the current administration not us.

      My argument is clearly laid out in the above statements from WMCA..How you interpret it is up to you I will be making no further comments on the matter.

      Like

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